roger_LS, post: 414408, member: 11550 wrote: Interesting, I've always thought Title Insurance was issued with all properties, I guess if you weren't getting a loan you could opt out. I would think cash buyers would want this anyway for their own protection but maybe not always. With the Title Co., I would think that they would have an interest to get it right even without a claim being made so as to protect themselves against any future claim. My concern with the judgement is that we really don't know much of any background info on it, was this a ruling for adverse possession? Was it a ruling because of uncertainty with the actual position of the section line? Another concern would be, without a full search of the record, how do we know as fact that another judgement or agreement has not been made after this one? And why was it that the conveyances for parcels to the South didn't refer to it? Was there a reason for this that we don't know about or was it a simple oversight? My overall point, is that there is some risk here in just taking the judgement and running with it, and I'd prefer, if possible, to have this risk shouldered by others.
I just did a boundary line adjustment for a rancher, after it was finished I called him to arrange who to send it all to. He came in and picked it all up and said he files it himself, which is allowed, I figured he didn't get title insurance, nor did the neighbor, just guessing 😉
The way it works here is that most people use two title offices to file deeds and they will charge a fee to issue insurance (which has gone up quite a bit).
You can have your lawyer do it and forgo the fee or file them yourself.
Basically the fee covers mistakes the title company makes when they file your deed, it doesn't cover much else. You are in essence buying their liability insurance and it's called title insurance.
Missing a court judgement would be one of those "mistakes". Normally the judgement would be filed in the book of deeds here,,,,,,,from the court to the courthouse vault; it's understandable that they may miss it if there is no connection from the court to the recording office. But, that's what title insurance is about, fixing these kinds of issues........assuming it was actually purchased.
MightyMoe, post: 414416, member: 700 wrote: I just did a boundary line adjustment for a rancher, after it was finished I called him to arrange who to send it all to. He came in and picked it all up and said he files it himself, which is allowed, I figured he didn't get title insurance, nor did the neighbor, just guessing 😉
The way it works here is that most people use two title offices to file deeds and they will charge a fee to issue insurance (which has gone up quite a bit).
You can have your lawyer do it and forgo the fee or file them yourself.
Basically the fee covers mistakes the title company makes when they file your deed, it doesn't cover much else. You are in essence buying their liability insurance and it's called title insurance.
Missing a court judgement would be one of those "mistakes". Normally the judgement would be filed in the book of deeds here,,,,,,,from the court to the courthouse vault; it's understandable that they may miss it if there is no connection from the court to the recording office. But, that's what title insurance is about, fixing these kinds of issues........assuming it was actually purchased.
"Normally the judgement would be filed in the book of deeds here..."
Who is responsible for the recordation of a court judgement there? Here it can only be done by the parties involved - the court records nothing.
I was an expert witness in a case decades ago where the judge said "The fence is the property line! Next case." Both parties are now deceased, the judge is in another country, and I am the only one in the world who knows that that particular fence is the property line. I've always thought there was something missing in the process...
Jim in AZ, post: 414442, member: 249 wrote: "Normally the judgement would be filed in the book of deeds here..."
Who is responsible for the recordation of a court judgement there? Here it can only be done by the parties involved - the court records nothing.
I was an expert witness in a case decades ago where the judge said "The fence is the property line! Next case." Both parties are now deceased, the judge is in another country, and I am the only one in the world who knows that that particular fence is the property line. I've always thought there was something missing in the process...
The court will send it down to the recorder.
It's useful to have the prevailing party's attorney, when drafting the Order for the Judge to sign, include a clause to have the Order recorded.
The books are filled with court actions.
MightyMoe, post: 414416, member: 700 wrote: I just did a boundary line adjustment for a rancher, after it was finished I called him to arrange who to send it all to. He came in and picked it all up and said he files it himself, which is allowed, I figured he didn't get title insurance, nor did the neighbor, just guessing 😉
The way it works here is that most people use two title offices to file deeds and they will charge a fee to issue insurance (which has gone up quite a bit).
You can have your lawyer do it and forgo the fee or file them yourself.
Basically the fee covers mistakes the title company makes when they file your deed, it doesn't cover much else. You are in essence buying their liability insurance and it's called title insurance.
Missing a court judgement would be one of those "mistakes". Normally the judgement would be filed in the book of deeds here,,,,,,,from the court to the courthouse vault; it's understandable that they may miss it if there is no connection from the court to the recording office. But, that's what title insurance is about, fixing these kinds of issues........assuming it was actually purchased.
for all of us who've complained about the dumbing down and automation of the practice of surveying, you should see what the internal hand wringing in the title insurance business looks like. (something i'm finding out quite a lot about lately)
title insurance is exactly what it says: insurance. which is to say, nobody is legally compelled to acquire it (which is what has always had me stumped about compulsory health insurance. conversely, legal requirements for liability insurance make more sense). it is the result of various interested parties wanting the security of clean title, which increasingly over the past several decades means primarily one group: lenders.
all that said- the industry heartburn has to do with the perceived nature of underwriting, from one of risk elimination to that of loss management... and the concurrent and resultant increasing loosey gooseyness with which policies are being underwritten- or at least that is the perception of a fair portion of the industry (one, by the way, that includes my current employer who explained and justified adding me- an RPLS- to staff to counteract the willingness of many underwriters to insure title to things they never have in the past).
MightyMoe, post: 414448, member: 700 wrote: The books are filled with court actions.
Here too. But just to pass on an estate. Steve
linebender, post: 414405, member: 449 wrote: That is absolutely the way it works here as well. I've never seen a boundary dispute here where the court orders a deed correction.
I don't think I have ever seen a deed correction either, but a map or the court order could be recorded in some fashion that is searchable by SecTwpRng. There are situations where there's significant evidence supporting two different locations for the line and 25 years after a decision has been made it can bite you in the butt to have a client or adjoiner come in to ask if the plat I recorded a six months ago puts the line in the same place as his/her court order.
Steve
MightyMoe, post: 414448, member: 700 wrote: The books are filled with court actions.
DOT condemnations get recorded here - almost no court decisions.
If a Judgment is handed down in California it is up to the prevailing party to get it recorded.
Jim in AZ, post: 414442, member: 249 wrote: "Normally the judgement would be filed in the book of deeds here..."
Who is responsible for the recordation of a court judgement there? Here it can only be done by the parties involved - the court records nothing.
I was an expert witness in a case decades ago where the judge said "The fence is the property line! Next case." Both parties are now deceased, the judge is in another country, and I am the only one in the world who knows that that particular fence is the property line. I've always thought there was something missing in the process...
If I'm involved in it I revise the map showing reference to the decision and record the map. Court decisions are filed in NY but not sure they are tied to a title search in any way. Recently worked on one where the same boundary was at issue as had been in 1908 and decided by the court in 1920 something. Nobody knew about it, in fact I didn't find it until after I issued my map.
Note that publishing a case so it shows up in legal encyclopedia and search engines is different than filing the proceedings of the case in the public record.
I'm watching/working on one now where the district court made the judgment (boundary follows occupation line, not the measurements), but the district court also ordered the occupation line surveyed and described and the record descriptions updated to reflect his decision. I thought that was really odd and told the attorney so. He said we will wait until the appeal is finished before we do anything. Maybe in 8-16 months we will know what to do 😉
I think one of the problems we have is trying to apply logic to legal problems. Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., a highly regarded American jurist explained the law is not based in logic.
For example, a Deed calls for the Section line. Logically that is a perfectly straight line between original monuments. The Courts have no trouble at all declaring that a crooked line is straight legally. If the Court declared that the fence is the established section line then there are no gaps and overlaps and it is implied that the southerly Deed calls for the fence because it is the section line. It seems weird especially given the engineering text books we have been trained by which are as styled boundary law texts.
Another example, "beginning at a point, thence north 100 feet, thence west 200 feet, etc." Say the Court rules the boundary is established 105 feet from the point of beginning and it runs north 5 degrees east 205 feet. It may defy logic to say that is what the Deed says, or maybe rather how it is interpreted, but that is how it is viewed legally. Legally 100 feet equals 105 feet.
The law is not a mathematical formula or rule, it is not logical like that, instead it has reasons for the answers and fills in the gaps with legal fictions.
Dave Karoly, post: 414518, member: 94 wrote: I think one of the problems we have is trying to apply logic to legal problems. Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., a highly regarded American jurist explained the law is not based in logic.
For example, a Deed calls for the Section line. Logically that is a perfectly straight line between original monuments. The Courts have no trouble at all declaring that a crooked line is straight legally. If the Court declared that the fence is the established section line then there are no gaps and overlaps and it is implied that the southerly Deed calls for the fence because it is the section line. It seems weird especially given the engineering text books we have been trained by which are as styled boundary law texts.
Another example, "beginning at a point, thence north 100 feet, thence west 200 feet, etc." Say the Court rules the boundary is established 105 feet from the point of beginning and it runs north 5 degrees east 205 feet. It may defy logic to say that is what the Deed says, or maybe rather how it is interpreted, but that is how it is viewed legally. Legally 100 feet equals 105 feet.
The law is not a mathematical formula or rule, it is not logical like that, instead it has reasons for the answers and fills in the gaps with legal fictions.
Right on point. That is why surveyor education programs should never be in engineering colleges.
I had involvement in a job a while ago where my client had a case that had gone to the State Supreme Court over an easement that he was ultimately awarded. This had happened in the 1960's. Throughout the 50 page judgement there was not even a legal description of the easement. There were two Recorded Maps showing the easement (which was originaly an old wagon trail) that were in conflicting locations. I believed one of them was correct, but the other had been performed closer to when the case happened. So I felt that there was an intent problem. I requested that my client get a title report to see what they would be insuring, he refused because he blamed them for part of his past legal troubles, so I walked away. It is crazy that after all of the effort that goes into these trials, that the parties aren't left with a crystal clear record based on a modern field survey.
Dave Karoly, post: 414518, member: 94 wrote: I think one of the problems we have is trying to apply logic to legal problems. Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., a highly regarded American jurist explained the law is not based in logic.
For example, a Deed calls for the Section line. Logically that is a perfectly straight line between original monuments. The Courts have no trouble at all declaring that a crooked line is straight legally. If the Court declared that the fence is the established section line then there are no gaps and overlaps and it is implied that the southerly Deed calls for the fence because it is the section line. It seems weird especially given the engineering text books we have been trained by which are as styled boundary law texts.
Another example, "beginning at a point, thence north 100 feet, thence west 200 feet, etc." Say the Court rules the boundary is established 105 feet from the point of beginning and it runs north 5 degrees east 205 feet. It may defy logic to say that is what the Deed says, or maybe rather how it is interpreted, but that is how it is viewed legally. Legally 100 feet equals 105 feet.
The law is not a mathematical formula or rule, it is not logical like that, instead it has reasons for the answers and fills in the gaps with legal fictions.
I don't think the law is saying 100 feet equals 105 or the section line is crooked. What the law is saying is that the words in the deed are only hints to find the location of the property on the ground.
Also, the court has no authority to say the section line is crooked. They have the authority to say the property described in the deed as being bound by the section line has a crooked boundary. That distinction usually doesn't matter, but sometimes it does.
aliquot, post: 414697, member: 2486 wrote: I don't think the law is saying 100 feet equals 105 or the section line is crooked. What the law is saying is that the words in the deed are only hints to find the location of the property on the ground.
Also, the court has no authority to say the section line is crooked. They have the authority to say the property described in the deed as being bound by the section line has a crooked boundary. That distinction usually doesn't matter, but sometimes it does.
That's true. I was mixing Law and fact. In law the line is straight, in fact it may not be perfectly straight.
roger_LS, post: 414595, member: 11550 wrote: I had involvement in a job a while ago where my client had a case that had gone to the State Supreme Court over an easement that he was ultimately awarded. This had happened in the 1960's. Throughout the 50 page judgement there was not even a legal description of the easement. There were two Recorded Maps showing the easement (which was originaly an old wagon trail) that were in conflicting locations. I believed one of them was correct, but the other had been performed closer to when the case happened. So I felt that there was an intent problem. I requested that my client get a title report to see what they would be insuring, he refused because he blamed them for part of his past legal troubles, so I walked away. It is crazy that after all of the effort that goes into these trials, that the parties aren't left with a crystal clear record based on a modern field survey.
If you are involved in one of these, you have to insist on helping with describing the final judgement. Lack of doing that is why we do not get paid the big bucks.
