My 2 cents are...you are now giving the ability to be sued by another party no matter how trivial. Insurance premiums are not cheap.
Updating and recertifying the survey is basically saying you will take responsibility accepting them as another certified party. For that, I would want to at least gain the base costs again.
That's realistic and my way of justifying..."Why am I ever not allowed to be thrown a bone?"
That first survey would already be filed at the courthouse for the entire world to find. End of discussion.
I had a similar situation including living in a small town. I went back to the field to make sure nothing changed since the first visit, drafted a new plat and wrote a new description. Client B wanted a little more info that required a few hours of field time and drafting.
I charged by the hour which was about 50% of the first survey. I made money and everyone was happy. Both Client A and B have been return clients.
> .... I state I cannot give it to them b/c it's not mine to give....
I believe that it is yours to give. The data is yours, at any rate.
A large part of what you charge for is not the survey but the liability you accept for its correctness. As things now stand, for all practical purposes, you are now free and clear of liablity for this survey. Typically, B's right to sue you for errors in a survey prepared for A are limited. (This liability issue is separate from issues of competence that your board may pursue for any product of yours that may come into its hands). If you reissue it to Client B you restart that liability. You should be paid for that.
It's not fair of Client A to expect you to protect his personal interests - beyond boundary matters - in perpetuity. The only fair thing to do is to prepare a new map for B and charge him exactly what you charged Client A. It would also be fair to let Client A know that this is what you propose to do, so he can have a chance to make the best deal he can for the survey he has in hand.
> >If you reissue it to Client B you restart that liability. You should be paid for that.
>
>
This is exactly what I was going to say. Also, as Kent pointed out, unless you've stated otherwise in your contract for services, Client A cannot keep you from pursuing your business of making a living. I go back to the old example of the title company. If the title company issue a title commitment and Client A paid for it, but the deal never closed, do you think the title company would use that same information again, put a new date on it and reissue it to a new Client B? Of course they would. Like you, they are in business to make money. You are not a charity. Why would it be considered gouging? It's what the survey is worth to someone, plus your liability isn't it?
> If the title company issue a title commitment and Client A paid for it, but the deal never closed, do you think the title company would use that same information again, put a new date on it and reissue it to a new Client B? Of course they would. Like you, they are in business to make money. You are not a charity. Why would it be considered gouging? It's what the survey is worth to someone, plus your liability isn't it?
What's a bit odd to me is that the map of the survey made for Client A didn't bear a certificate stating that it was for Client A's benefit in connection with a specific transaction and certifying the correctness of the map specifically to Client A and some named other parties such as seller, title insurer, and/or lender. I realize that title insurers (at least in Texas) have gotten relaxed about relying upon old maps prepared for other transactions, but it still seems to me to be of value to name the parties. That way, the product is clearly tailored to some specific contractual agreement, not just a generic map for all time and all subsequent purposes.
If this lot had been sold to Client A, then a month later was put back on the market listed with the same realtor, would the realtor list it for a lower percentage than the previous sale? No! Would the attorney peform title work on the same property for a reduced fee? No! After I field verified that all monuments are still in position and prepare a new plat, I would charge the same amount for this resurvey as the original survey. The liabilty we assume is the same for the second survey as the first, and someone needs to pay for it, preferably not me.
:good:
"Why isn't the survey being made for the current owner?"
Good question - we would only rarely perform work without the owner being the client - can't lien a non-owner in this state.
Put it in the contract.
"...we own the work product, not the person ordering the survey"
:good: Can't imagine anything else!
Damn right, Kent. I have NEVER understood where surveyors got the idea that their previous clients have some sort of right to control the documents. Absent any clear legal contract to the contrary (which I would not sign) I would handle it exactly as you describe.
Your client pays you to provide them information and your opinion of the boundary. They don't get to tell you what to do with that information.
A week ago I had a message from a realtor, saying that Owner B (I surveyed for Owner A) was "giving me permission" to give her a copy of my survey map. THAT I DIDN'T EVEN DO FOR HIM. I almost spit my coffee out laughing at the message. How do these people zip their pants up in the morning with those giant brass balls?
Andy
> I've had this happen a time or two. What we do is that we tell them is less than the original, but we are going to check everything. A surveyor friend of mine recently pointed me to a court case that said that the client who payed for it owns the survey. Just because they don't own the land doesn't mean they don't own the service you provided. That being said, make it different and charge accordingly. Let everyone know. You're going to pi$$ off someone in the mix, just make sure you can fade the heat on the parties upset.
I'd like to see that citation.
who is the original client?
Who owns the 50 acres you said you originally surveyed?? Not sure if it's the same entity as "client A" . but either way, it seems like you end up down a rabbit hole, letting everyone tell you they have control of your maps.
What if the 50 acre client said it was ok?
And WHY would your "Client A" even care about who gets your map? it's too bad they didn't have their financing in order, but that's not your problem. Are they just being spiteful?
> A week ago I had a message from a realtor, saying that Owner B (I surveyed for Owner A) was "giving me permission" to give her a copy of my survey map. THAT I DIDN'T EVEN DO FOR HIM.
Ah, I've heard that one, too. The last one was extending the "permission" of a fellow who was three owners removed from my work on the tract and who specifically declined to have the survey updated when he bought it. Comedy gold when I reminded him of those details since apparently he'd written into the sales contract that HE'D provide the survey at his expense, thinking, I suppose, that his expense would be lunch money.
Frankly, I recently told a "client A" that even they couldn't get a copy of the survey that I did for them years ago without an update.
I reminded them that they did indeed get a signed sealed map at the time of our transaction.
I am not bound to be a "copy shop" for every client. Again, not my fault if you don't take care of your records. If it comes from my office, it will be updated properly and paid for.
A prelim map is all you have there
If it hasn't been recorded, it really doesn't exist. All you have is a map showing a proposed out-parcel. If the land owner hasn't had it notarized and recorded, it ain't nothin' yet.
I've had folks pop in with an older map I made wanting me to update it. I find out it's not recorded and BANG, this a new job. Sorry Charley, this map has to be redone and the points checked etc. I won't charge the same amount as the first time but I'll be close.
What would a Title Ins co do?
IF you went and bought 100k in title insurance, and paid for the title ins., and then turned around, and sold the land, that you bought title ins on, and the buyer wanted title ins, then they would also have to pay for the 100k in title ins.
As a surveyor, you actually visited the site. you actually did somthing that improved the value. Whereas the title co only looked at the papers at the courthouse, and issued the insurance.
So, should you get paid every time your liability is refreshed?
Em hm, I think so.
N
I do not work in a state where surveys are recorded, so that's not really an issue here. I do appreciate the advice given, and do not plan on doing the work for free by any means. I had my mind made up when I posted, I just always like to see the opinion of others. Thanks all.
> I am not bound to be a "copy shop" for every client. Again, not my fault if you don't take care of your records. If it comes from my office, it will be updated properly and paid for.
Yes, we're selling reliable information, not pirate maps. So the point of the exercise is to take all care that the information represented on a map as the present condition of some tract is in fact reliable and to charge for the service accordingly.