probably makes the guys who sell manholes and pipe joints pretty happy, though.
The town I live in has a strange layout on one street with jogs in the street line every two lots, instead of a curve. When it was paved it was laid out as a curve. Made some interesting things happen.
Greg Rodger, post: 385503, member: 11989 wrote: Ouch, that would be harsh. I would simply give a professional opinion based on established professional standards in my jurisdiction. As long as you adjust for magnetic north of the reference year it's pretty easy to use modern instruments. I've done it and come in within millimeters. No need of a survey compass.
I once set through a class on a court case that involved someone who did just what you stated, but the adjoiner did not accept the survey line as correct, so he hired a surveyor to retrace the line. He used a transit with a compass adjusted for the correct declination and a top mount EDM, by following the called for Magnetic bearing he recovered 7 of the 8 ajoining property corners on the common line of which the 1st surveyor found none. Why? They were in a area known as Iron Mountain, who do you think the Court accepted/
Bushwhacker, post: 385534, member: 10727 wrote: I once set through a class on a court case that involved someone who did just what you stated, but the adjoiner did not accept the survey line as correct, so he hired a surveyor to retrace the line. He used a transit with a compass adjusted for the correct declination and a top mount EDM, by following the called for Magnetic bearing he recovered 7 of the 8 ajoining property corners on the common line of which the 1st surveyor found none. Why? They were in a area known as Iron Mountain, who do you think the Court accepted/
Did the first surveyor talk with the land owners? If the neighbor didnt agree he should have asked where he thought the line was, maybe he could have found a few of those missed corners. You recall the case name? Sounds like an interesting read.
Some of what is the most critical information in surveying comes from mistakes made. Those you make and those your predecessors made that you discover in your investigations. A 66-foot or 33-foot or 16.5-foot error is far more common than a 21.3-foot error for reasons most of us understand, especially in PLSSia. Another common error is moving the wrong direction off an existing alignment by the amount that needed to be moved........the other way. Some old time plats have built in errors, for example, labeling tenths of a foot as inches or vice versa. Assuming the GLO contractors working in PLSSia in the early days actually did what they wrote down every day will get your butt in trouble time and again in certain parts of this country. Most of these, and similar lessons, don't really take hold in your mind until you have encountered them directly in the field several times. No amount of class time can address such things in a way that will really take hold.
There are places where you HAVE to have a good compass, to perform GLO retracement. "Magnet Cove" down by Malvern is one of them. There are magnetic analomies all over the USA. Principals and use of a compass, are fundamental to retracement. And should be taught. And, up and coming surveyors should have FIELD knowledge of their use. Experiencial field knowledge.
Nate The Surveyor, post: 385541, member: 291 wrote: There are places where you HAVE to have a good compass, to perform GLO retracement. "Magnet Cove" down by Malvern is one of them. There are magnetic analomies all over the USA. Principals and use of a compass, are fundamental to retracement. And should be taught. And, up and coming surveyors should have FIELD knowledge of their use. Experiencial field knowledge.
I've only encountered the odd magnetic bearing. Most around here are astronomic or based on a plan's bearing which is ad nauseum based on another plan etc etc back to an astro bearing. Compass bearings are generally fickle due to changing metallic properties in rock, surveyors gear, and change over time. Mining nickel out of the ground will change the magnetic properties, building power lines etc etc. I usually adjust the bearing to today's north magnetic pole then correct to grid. Unless the survey line is miles long it's usually close enough (couple hundredths in some cases) to find bars/ other evidence. I've never had to resort to digging out an old compass yet and hope I never do.
There was a case, in the PLSS that a surveyor ran a EW line, an old Section line. He set it straight, between the Section corners, via modern surveying equipment. The neighbor sued. Was not happy. Hired his own surveyor, who used a total station, AND a compass. He traversed the whole mile, with EDM, and total station. (It's been a while ago, I think maybe it was a T-2, with EDM, or such) In applying the magnetism, it turned out to be a CURVED line, around 30' offset in the middle. Guess who won in court?
And, I think there was evidence of the old line, maybe an old line tree, to boot.
Stuff like this is where a compass, and it's use can be important.
Nate
Greg Rodger, post: 385536, member: 11989 wrote: Did the first surveyor talk with the land owners? If the neighbor didnt agree he should have asked where he thought the line was, maybe he could have found a few of those missed corners. You recall the case name? Sounds like an interesting read.
I can't remember the names but I think Walt Robilard was who was presenting the class
Nate The Surveyor, post: 385551, member: 291 wrote: There was a case, in the PLSS that a surveyor ran a EW line, an old Section line. He set it straight, between the Section corners, via modern surveying equipment. The neighbor sued. Was not happy. Hired his own surveyor, who used a total station, AND a compass. He traversed the whole mile, with EDM, and total station. (It's been a while ago, I think maybe it was a T-2, with EDM, or such) In applying the magnetism, it turned out to be a CURVED line, around 30' offset in the middle. Guess who won in court?
And, I think there was evidence of the old line, maybe an old line tree, to boot.
Stuff like this is where a compass, and it's use can be important.
Nate
If the compass helped find the old evidence great, I would still never use measurements taken from 100 year old magnetic bearing as best evidence unless I failed to find anything else. I would wonder why surveyor 1 didn't notice the treeline as it was only 30' offset in the middle?
He noticed. Showed it as a crooked and rejected line. After indexing the compass, it makes alot of sense to me.
Nate
Nate The Surveyor, post: 385554, member: 291 wrote: He noticed. Showed it as a crooked and rejected line. After indexing the compass, it makes alot of sense to me.
Nate
Facepalm the only case I can quote verbatum,. Justice Cooley's - hierarchy of evidence. Surveyor 1 should have paid attention to the evidence on the ground instead of trusting any measurement.
Greg, I think you are missing the point. The compass, when USED properly and UNDERSTOOD properly can be a huge piece of evidence.
The point is that we should NEVER forsake the lowly compass, not even for an XYZ Hyper Dinger GPS system, that can measure without error, across the state of Texas.
4 year degree should require 4 years experience before, during, or after college.
2 year degree plus 6 years experience same as above.
HSD plus 8 years experience for SIT. Plus 2 more for PLS.
Surveying 25 plus years. Hand them the license.
Greg Rodger, post: 385443, member: 11989 wrote: We learned the theory and principles involved but actually doing it is kind of absurd considering the amount of surveyors out there who are having trouble adapting to new technologies. I'd rather have people 100% confident in how RTK works and when it doesn't work than someone who is real good with archaic techniques. There is a fine line between appreciating what our ancestors did and suffering archaic techniques for the sake of historical appreciation. I would not expect medical doctors to be up to par on 100 year old surgical techniques if better techniques exist today.
Greg, I don't mean to give you a hard time but you don't sound like any surveyor I've ever spoken with.
Licensed Land Surveyor
Finger Lakes Region, Upstate New York
Greg Rodger, post: 385524, member: 11989 wrote: This is off topic but I would love to know people's opinions on traditional vs digital field notes. I fall in the traditional camp for sure.
When other techs and surveyors are relying upon the fns, the more detailed information needs to be included.
People that are adept in FTF gathering, they more or less explain themselves.
Basic drawings and notes will always be valuable.
I think our association does a good job at evaluating it's members. We need a 4 year degree plus 2 years of practical, plus statutes and professional exam. No one should expect every surveyor to know everything day 1. But it would be practical to know most of what you will actually encounter. I will probably never encounter an old survey that would require what the OP suggests but that doesn't mean it isn't a good idea for another region where it will be useful.
A much bigger problem in my association is not young whippersnappes' lack of respecting tradition but rather the opposite, it's established surveyors not getting out in the field anymore.
In my association, a lot of established surveyors are in office 100% of the time and haven't even used a surveying instrument since GPS came out. While it isn't economically viable to make them go into the field all the time, I think it should be mandatory that they at least become familiar with the equipment they sign off on by using it a couple of times.
We need both education and experience. One of the most important elements of education is being taught how to learn. When you finish school you should be prepared to subject each survey to the proper retracement and measurement method for the specific survey. This may require much research and analysis. Experience alone may or may not prepare the practicing surveyor. How many times have we heard someone say they had 10 years experience when they really had 1 year ten times. A person fresh out of school may understand most of the mathematics they will need. School can not teach everything important about a particular area and the historical methods. I know that I personally may accept or reject a pin now where I would have done the opposite 30 years ago. I am still learning. School yes. Experience yes. One of our problems is that many have retired from active thinking and just do "what has always worked in the past".
It's possible that Greg Rodger above could benefit from a serious lesson in the use of a compass. I don't mean any rudeness at all by that statement, but I know another surveyor, who also does NOT trust his compass....ie, he is not confident in it.
I have retraced NS section lines, for MILES that did not vary by more than 3 feet. A properly run compass, can perform some serious work. BUT you must index it. You must understand it. Used properly, a compass is a serious surveying tool.
And, there are places where a compass can make you run curved lines.
I want to promote understanding.
Nate
Nate The Surveyor, post: 385558, member: 291 wrote: Greg, I think you are missing the point. The compass, when USED properly and UNDERSTOOD properly can be a huge piece of evidence.
The point is that we should NEVER forsake the lowly compass, not even for an XYZ Hyper Dinger GPS system, that can measure without error, across the state of Texas.
I think it would be neat but I doubt I will ever use it after consulting my crew with 30+ years experience. I think knowing the tools that you need 95% of the time is good enough. Most competent professionals can learn on the job if need be. Honestly I am all about learning everything in the profession, I am just trying to be pragmatic.
I would love to learn to be a wizzard at a compass and chain, do I have time to do that with two dozen jobs every week that are performed perfectly with a sledge hammer and total station though? I am more worried about experienced surveyors who spend all their time in the office not getting enough experience with new technologies they sign off on daily. Will I one day sit in an office signing off on plans collected with "new X technology", probably - but I hope my association makes me learn it at least in theory if not practice.
If I ever run into the 5% where I am truly stuck I will/do reach out to others for help and I promise right now that if I ever get stuck running lines on an old magnetic bearing I will definitely take you up on the challenge and I will find someone with an old one to use.