Surveying is and always has been following the footsteps of the original surveyor. All the satellites in the world are useless under a thick canopy of trees. Or during a government test when they shut them down. Or when you need to square up a building. Running a line for 5 sections, and not finding the called for monument at the called for distance is not unusual in Texas. Why? Because they used chain and compass to get there. So you learn to see why those old tools could of had errors, and you compensate for those errors, and you start your search, and quite often, you find the called for monument. Without knowing your history, how will you know which early surveyors typically set what kind of corner monuments, and which did office surveys? Speaking of history, without going through the deed records, you will be loosing so much of the history of the land. So you want to go out, find the 4 corners of the peoples house tract, flag them up, shoot them by VRS network, call it good, and go to the next survey. OK. Many of us here follow up guys who do that, and use both old and modern instruments when doing so, and appreciate the business.
Measurement is the easiest part of land surveying today. That is why it is turned over to untrained technicians time and time again. Being a professional licensed boundary surveyor on the other hand requires knowledge of so many other subjects that many of us are still learning after decades of practice. Most of those subjects have nothing to do with technology and how it changes. However, one thing we are always doing, on every job, is following the work of those who went before us. Maybe only a month earlier or maybe a couple of centuries earlier, depending on where one works. In any case, we cannot condemn their work because they did not have the tools we have today. Similarly, we cannot condemn their approach simply because it differs from whatever the consensus might support today. If one does not respect history and those who made it, they need to change professions to find one where they can be of service. Failure will become reality otherwise.
I thought using a transit and tape in college was really helpful. I think we surveyed close to an acre out in the open and two to three lab classes on a transit and tape. With just that short amount of time it gave me an idea of the procedures used. You will not fully understand the procedures until you are trying to hold a plumb bob over a point and pull the right amount of tension.
As far as learning the new technology, I agree it is important. The tools used in our profession are quickly advancing and we must know how they work. However if the foundation of everything we do is ignored and only taught as a theory, we are doing a great injustice to our profession.
Nate The Surveyor, post: 385458, member: 291 wrote: Greg, there are "No Pat Answers" you simply have to know them all, and apply the best, or most professional one. And, you have to LIVE with your mistakes, not bury them, as doctors do. A good surveyor KNOWS all the solutions, LOOKED at all the solutions, CONSIDERED all the solutions, and PROVIDED his thoughts, on his plats, so that others surveyors "Might know what he was thinking", and be inclined to FOLLOW his footsteps.
I am not in favor of the "One answer" survey. I can see a single plat, where 4 differing philosophies were applied, to 4 different corners, all at the same time. My concern is that the new up and coming surveyor KNOW and be FAMILIAR with them. So, he has a palate of colors to choose from. Not to RESTRICT him, but to EXPAND him. (and waste his time, I might add, as my brother used to say!) he he, bit of humor!
LOL don't get me wrong - I do look into each bar that is planted on a corner but I do give my head a shake for a solid 5 minutes first. It usually ends up that there is one philosophy and 3 impatient surveys when you find 4 bars 😉
Greg Rodger, post: 385451, member: 11989 wrote: At the end of the day no one seriously expects someone to actually use a Gunter's chain
FWIW, we do drag out a chain sometimes, no it's not a Gunter's chain, but still a steel tape, and a compass, to do some of our work
I have a feeling all the "old" guys are going to agree with Nate; and all the young guns are going to think it's pointless.
My view is that you won't find the original corner if you're not looking in the right spot (which is NEVER online and 1/2 way between two found corners). I've never used the equipment Nate references; but, I'd love to try it.
I have to laugh when I hear the "you can't replace experience" argument as a slight towards college degree programs and students. Having met "experienced" (10+ years) workers who have told me things like "I don't know why we hold original monuments, area should control" ( I nearly choked when I heard that). The truth is garbage come in all shapes and sizes, degree or not.
Setting up an instrument is a joke these days, "the compensator will take care of that". After doing it 1000 times anyone can become an expert. Learning to do it properly with an instrument with an out of adjustment spirit vial takes a little knowledge and skill. I bet most field guys today could not even do that.
I graduated from a program where we had a class in PLSS wherein we survey a PLSS township with compass and steel tape and even produce field notes complete with topo calls per the manual. Working in a PLSS state I think it was a very useful experience.
Doing one year's worth of experience identically for 20 years equates to one year of experience. Too many field personnel are exposed to that very situation.
Beau_Immel, post: 385470, member: 8320 wrote: The truth is garbage come in all shapes and sizes, degree or not.
The Man speaks Volumes of wisdom! There is not an easy answer. In my idea of the best way to train up and coming surveyors it would be apprenticeships, done for many years, so they got the experience of history, skills, etc. I have no doubt there are some good college programs out there somewhere. I haven't seen them yet, so of course, I downplay the ones I have seen. But as much as a modern day carpenter can enjoy his air powered nailer, and his skill saw, and a computer controlled milling machine, there is still a need to know how to use a coping saw, a hammer, and still a demand for a craftsman that can build a ornate bookcase completely by hand
Monte, I know a few who have years of experience with the HWY dpt, yet not alot of practical experience with boundary work. I am for all of it. And, teaching others to have a WILLINGNESS to learn more. It is essential IMHO
Nate, I agree, I know several who have spent their entire career in one position, and have not much to give. In my defense, I would hope they would be teaching their replacement, who would need the same skill set, and nothing more...
I remember I was stalking a new street in a neighborhood must have been in 1997, we would staked it with either GPS then run level to all of the hubs, or use the total station. The street has alot of curves, and reverse curves as well. I made the comment to one of the older guys on our crew, it seems more and more streets are being designed with curves. He explained to me how curves were stalked back in the 60's, had to turn to the angle and pull a tape to set the points online. He said with the total station stalking, how much easier it is. I said oh so now that Surveyors are smarter we can have more curves to a street, He said no we were just as smart, we just have equipment that can do it faster and easier now.
I now judge when a neighborhood was built by the street layout.
Understand how the older survey equipment was used and what error was accepted to them, is so important. If you get the chance to do one of the historic retractment surveys, I recommend taking one.
headywest, post: 385363, member: 9223 wrote: I was lucky - I was taught surveying fundamentals in college with a transit and chain, balancing traverses by hand, no computer. The RPLS who taught the course made sure we understood boundary descriptions, took us to county courthouses for research, and made us do platting. We balanced out that with instruction in GIS and he brought in his personal total station for us to use in our class. Then I went out to the wilds and surveyed in private before spending 9 years surveying for a public entity. I started in Texas - no PLSS system there - and have spent the last decade in Missouri - PLSS with a twist.
You can't beat field experience. You have to know what its like to stick a shovel in the ground and know if you are digging where others have done before. You have to understand the fundamentals of what it means to follow in the footsteps. I have been fortunate to survey a whole section (unusual in an urban area) and US Surveys and city blocks.
Surveying is an apprenticeship profession. We don't become good surveyors without spending time with good surveyors - both in the office and in the field. But that circles back to so many 1-man shops and 1-man crews that we can't train up surveyors the way we used to without investing in them. And that is a challenge of itself.
So, I do think that surveyors must spend time in the field. Maybe not surveying old school but definitely surveying with old surveyors. I think we also need to be asking more of the crews that we send out to the field.
If anyone has a solution, I think the profession would be most interested in hearing it.
"But that circles back to so many 1-man shops and 1-man crews that we can't train up surveyors the way we used to without investing in them."
The advent of the modern instruments that allow for solo surveying are in no small way a major impediment to the evolution of competent surveyors. I was fortunate enough to learn the old ways from old guys, chaining over hill and dale, doing calcs in the field with a Curta and 12-place book of tables, "walking the line", etc., and I am struggling now trying to pass that knowledge on without having my guys actually doing it. It is so much different now... the new generations will certainly not be the same as the old. All I can do is be the best mentor I can, and I take that responsibility very seriously, but some of the things I know just can't get passed along without actually being performed.
As we age, we tend to get a field hand to carry and do it for us.
This will bring some interesting new folks into the world of solo.
N
Thats part of what got me taking my horse whenever I could. He can carry everything, and do my walking too!, Now if he could just use a shovel...
Monte, post: 385487, member: 11913 wrote: Thats part of what got me taking my horse whenever I could. He can carry everything, and do my walking too!, Now if he could just use a shovel...
You need to get a Donkey, because any Jackass can use a shovel, its the knowing where to dig part that takes the skill.
I was taught many many labs of classic methods. Sun shots, chaining, stadia, etc, etc. After being in the field for a while I wish we'd learned more cogo and cad software. It would save so much money not having to hire a technician if I knew it better. Alas my surveying engineering degree had to balance the old and new.
I've threatened to get a mule, so he can jump fences, but I am afraid he'd jump the fence, and I'd get hung up, and he'd leave my ass there!
Scott Ellis, post: 385483, member: 7154 wrote: I remember I was stalking a new street in a neighborhood must have been in 1997, we would staked it with either GPS then run level to all of the hubs, or use the total station. The street has alot of curves, and reverse curves as well. I made the comment to one of the older guys on our crew, it seems more and more streets are being designed with curves. He explained to me how curves were stalked back in the 60's, had to turn to the angle and pull a tape to set the points online. He said with the total station stalking, how much easier it is. I said oh so now that Surveyors are smarter we can have more curves to a street, He said no we were just as smart, we just have equipment that can do it faster and easier now.
I now judge when a neighborhood was built by the street layout.
Understand how the older survey equipment was used and what error was accepted to them, is so important. If you get the chance to do one of the historic retractment surveys, I recommend taking one.
i would posit that some component of the preponderance of wacky street layout is coincidental to the rise of "planning" as a dedicated profession, and the need of everyone to justify their own existence. seems like while a good bit of it is done out of the necessity of considering topography and/or natural impediments to "traditional" grid layout, a significant chunk if it seemingly makes no sense other than to satisfy the artsy fartsy tendencies and predilictions of people who are an inch deep and mile wide with their "holistic" bag of tricks.
(can you tell i've been dealing with comments from a city planner all day?)
the most salient way that i can personally relate to this is through my main hobby/stress reliever- running. everyone has a favorite running shoe, if you do the kind of mileage that keeps most of us who do from otherwise being a rotten alcoholic or scofflaw of whatever variety. every couple years- at most- the shoe company will go change up a shoe design for no other reason than they have designers on staff and they aren't gonna pay them just to pat themselves on the back for making a winner. so instead of selling somebody like me another 8 or 10 pairs of the same running shoe over the course of a couple years, they lose some part of their sales and have to pay the designers to yet redesign the shoes again to try and recover their old faithful clients. there's some old saying about leaving well enough alone...
flyin solo, post: 385493, member: 8089 wrote: i would posit that some component of the preponderance of wacky street layout is coincidental to the rise of "planning" as a dedicated profession, and the need of everyone to justify their own existence. seems like while a good bit of it is done out of the necessity of considering topography and/or natural impediments to "traditional" grid layout, a significant chunk if it seemingly makes no sense other than to satisfy the artsy fartsy tendencies and predilictions of people who are an inch deep and mile wide with their "holistic" bag of tricks.
(can you tell i've been dealing with comments from a city planner all day?)
Hear hear!