Said the attorney.
Last week I called an abutter to an abutter and left a message. I stated that we were surveying an abutter to an abutter. As their abutter's land had never been surveyed and their own property has an ambiguous westerly boundary, any information they have regarding the boundaries would be beneficial. Yes, I am surveying the abutter to the abutter, but the northerly line of my clients' parcel is the extension of the common line between the abutters and as the abutters are only defined by area, the location of that ambiguous westerly line will help tidy it all up.
The father is an attorney who was not pleased at how I had simply left a message stating that the boundary is ambiguous. The attorney is heavily involved with land law. Apparently his daughter called him in hysterics over that comment. The boundary in question has 5 courses, distances only. There are surveyed plans on the other three sides, so if the SW and NW corners are perfect, the 5 distances cannot be correctly placed. The westerly line appears on the assessors' as a dashed line meaning it was roughed into their map (which says alot since the whole map is so rough). One abutter is fully aware that the boundaries of their land are not really known.
My ultimate response was that I was shocked that the ambiguous boundary had not been discovered and/or disclosed prior to the 2007 conveyance.
They apparently hired a different firm to prepare plans. That firm prepared a septic design, but did not record a Plan of Land. I am not sure if they have even determined the boundaries and if they did not, I would hope that there are some old lines of occupation that can establish one or two of the corners.
An Attorney can be the most difficult of clients.
They usually run their own chain of title and issue a title opinion to gain a title policy without the benefit of a survey.
Lack of reliable paperwork is the usual when researching their properties.
good luck........
GEEZZ! Sounds like something that would come my way. You're not wanting to alter their boundaries. But papa put you on notice! Be careful!
I just want to honor and respect their actual boundaries. Not my fault papa sheltered his daughter and did not tell her she was buying a piece of land that was not clearly defined.
We do need to be careful about what we say to second and third parties.
Nothing new about this. There is an episode of Perry Mason (1950's !) were Paul Drake calls the police to report a body he and Perry have found. Paul begins to tell the person who answers about the circumstances of the find. Perry snatches the phone from Paul's ear and says "Report it, the law requires. You've done that. You don't have to gossip."
I can understand why she was upset. She probably took your phone message to mean she had a major boundary problem and didn't know it.
How can you buy a property in 2007 and not know that the boundaries are ambiguous? My question was along the lines of "Do you have any information to help me place the boundary as the record is ambiguous?"
Now finding that her father is an attorney who specializes in land I have to ask how this happened. How do you not know?
spledeus, post: 336343, member: 3579 wrote: How can you buy a property in 2007 and not know that the boundaries are ambiguous? .... How do you not know?
Hard to fathom. But not our business. We know that it happens all the time, don't we?
Atty probably wrote that desc... HA
Most people buy land without knowledge of the boundary location. They will spend 2 grand for useless title insurance but scream about less for an actual survey. That's just the way people are.
As for the parties being upset, give them a listen. Yes we need to resolve ambiguities. We do not need to rile the neighborhood in the process.
My .02, Tom
The husband was fine and knew about the ambiguous description. I think the daughter was kept in the dark.
spledeus, post: 336319, member: 3579 wrote:
The father is an attorney who was not pleased at how I had simply left a message stating that the boundary is ambiguous.
I make quite a few phone calls seeking info from adjoiners, previous owners, etc., and have found if I have to leave a message I don't include any opinions or anything that may sound an alarm - I merely state that I'm surveying property boundaries in the area and would like to talk to them. Whenever possible it is always better to meet in person than to try to discuss such matters over the phone or on an answering machine.
I had a lady in tears one day as she had not long purchased the small property alongside our client's rather large one. Due to the terrain and trees, it was impossible to see from one end of the common boundary to the other and the fence bowed out substantially onto our clients title. The fence was correct at the ends but not the middle.
Once discovered I went and knocked on the door and explained who I was, what I was doing and what the problem was. cue tears. Husband then comes out very concerned (as he should if a stranger had his wife in tears) and then I had to explain it all again and whilst he was still angry, at least he accepted what I said.
One thing I have seen too many times (yes, I used to do this too) is that we, as surveyors, too often reach our conclusions on the location of boundaries far too soon. Usually before we have all the evidence.
To complicate matters even worse, we too often reveal our premature conclusions to clients, neighbors, title companies, and other affected and interested parties before we get all the facts, effectively rendering the facts we missed irrelevant, and possibly inadmissible in any future analysis or litigation.
If we stop and think about our job of locating boundaries - the solution (and prevention of many problems) is obvious. Before we can reach conclusions we first need to gather ALL the evidence. We miss a great deal of relevant evidence when we don't interview adjoiners, previous owners, "old-timers", etc., properly and before we reveal our premature conclusions.
One practice I try to employ, is to interview interested parties (keeping accurate notes) before I measure anything or look for any monuments. Ask the person(s), "tell me what you know about your boundaries"; "Come show me where you think your boundary is?"; "Why do you believe the boundary is located here?"; "Why is that fence located where it is?"; "Who built it and why?"; etc, etc, etc,. This not only may reveal vital clues to the location of the boundaries, but it helps build a trusting, professional relationship with the neighbors, clients, and other interested parties, therefore they will tend to trust your final opinion when properly formed, even if the ambiguities are not in their "favor".
We desperately need to SLOW DOWN and properly gather all the evidence before coming to a well reasoned and lawful opinion of the location of the boundary. Knock on doors, pickup the phone, ask proper questions - be professional.
Brian Allen, post: 336395, member: 1333 wrote: One thing I have seen too many times (yes, I used to do this too) is that we, as surveyors, too often reach our conclusions on the location of boundaries far too soon. Usually before we have all the evidence.
To complicate matters even worse, we too often reveal our premature conclusions to clients, neighbors, title companies, and other affected and interested parties before we get all the facts, effectively rendering the facts we missed irrelevant, and possibly inadmissible in any future analysis or litigation.
If we stop and think about our job of locating boundaries - the solution (and prevention of many problems) is obvious. Before we can reach conclusions we first need to gather ALL the evidence. We miss a great deal of relevant evidence when we don't interview adjoiners, previous owners, "old-timers", etc., properly and before we reveal our premature conclusions.
One practice I try to employ, is to interview interested parties (keeping accurate notes) before I measure anything or look for any monuments. Ask the person(s), "tell me what you know about your boundaries"; "Come show me where you think your boundary is?"; "Why do you believe the boundary is located here?"; "Why is that fence located where it is?"; "Who built it and why?"; etc, etc, etc,. This not only may reveal vital clues to the location of the boundaries, but it helps build a trusting, professional relationship with the neighbors, clients, and other interested parties, therefore they will tend to trust your final opinion when properly formed, even if the ambiguities are not in their "favor".
We desperately need to SLOW DOWN and properly gather all the evidence before coming to a well reasoned and lawful opinion of the location of the boundary. Knock on doors, pickup the phone, ask proper questions - be professional.
I bet you don't advertise "FREE ESTIMATES" on top of your yellow page add either. 🙂 Jp
