In your practice of surveying, how important is your professional library (your personal collection of survey references) to you and how often do you find yourself looking something up in one of them?
This could have gone into Legal Issues just as easily because the question comes up as a result of something I experienced in court earlier this week.
It was a PLSS issue in a portion of a section previously divided by a surveyor in the 1960s. A surveyor resurveys this portion of the section about 4 years ago.
I submitted a report as expert witness, and in it made many references to support materials by way of sections from the 1973 BLM Manual, Boundary Control & Legal Principles, Evidence & Procedures, Clark, and Skelton. I brought these books with me to court in case the Judge wanted copies, and to have them available in case the attorney on the other side asserted that I cherry picked. I also brought several other references to back up what I had cited from these.
The other side had as their expert the CEO of a local mid-sized firm. Both he and the firm are pretty well respected in the area, and for the most part, I thought that he was a pretty good and formidable witness.
But I was really very surprised when he was asked about whether private surveyors should refer to the BLM Manual particularly, and other references generally. He stated that a surveyor never refer to the BLM Manual unless he is unfamiliar with or has forgotten how to do a section breakdown. He further generally discounted the value of references stating similarly that a surveyor wouldn't often refer to other references unless he has forgotten how to do a boundary survey.
Just to put it in context, the basis of the argument was whether a surveyor should assess a prior survey that divided the section on several different factors or assess it only according to whether or not the monuments fell at the calulated positions the new survey would place them at.
When back on the stand and asked about referring to texts and treatises, I pointed to my stack of books on the table, asked our attorney to hold up the 73 Manual, pointed out that the simple math of a section breakdown is covered in about half of one of the 10 chapters contained in that, and that the several heavily tabbed books on that table, and the others in the bag at the foot of the table represented perhaps about 10% of my library and that I am looking one thing or another up weekly or more often. I related a professional land surveyor looking up technical or legal reference material to a lawyer looking up law or commentary in Lexis, Am Jur, or Wests and said that in the practice of any profession, there is simply too much knowledge and information contained in the books written as references for that profession for any person to adequately memorize. A professional knows where and how to find the answers.
What say you, how important are your reference books and how often do you look something up in them?
Sounds to me like you got it just right Mr. Page.
It is the trait of a technician (and a poor one at that) to believe he knows everything he needs to know without ever going back and reviewing and learning new things.
Larry P
[sarcasm] All real surveyors know that all one needs to know is 3-87 and 3-89 of the 73 Manual. Everything else in the Manuals is just a waste of ink and paper.[/sarcasm]
Evan,
I think you nailed the answer. There is absolutely no way that we could memorize all of the stuff we are supposed to know. Yes, we should be familiar with it, but there is always the off the wall, or once in a while stuff that we run into that we need to refresh ourselves on.
I refer to my books regularly. It's part of what we do. I had a good friend ask if he could borrow a few of my books to start studying for his exam. I told him that I used them on a regular basis, and that he needed to purchase his own, because he would find himself making notes and highlighting in the book. After I showed him my notes, and tabs I made while studying, he understood.
Jimmy
I read something from my survey books everyday. I reference them in reports and on the stand when testifying. Several times they have been referenced by a judge in the decision.
I think you did an excellent job related your checking your reference materials to what an attorney does. The only thing I might have added is that laws do change, so attorneys must keep current, but this is also true of surveyors so you might have explained how you kept up with current laws, i.e. conferences, continuing ed, etc.
I often will put citations to my references in my file notes, (sometimes on plat also). I also in my file notes will sometimes notes other references that other surveyors might use as well as why I'm not using or am using that line of reasoning. It's good to always be able to say "I considered that alternative, but rejected it for the following reason. . ." It shows you took the time to make a well reasoned professional decision.
Evelyn
> It is the trait of a technician (and a poor one at that) to believe he knows everything he needs to know without ever going back and reviewing and learning new things.
I feel sorry for you for writing such a comment, Sir.
>I related a professional land surveyor looking up technical or legal reference material to a lawyer looking up law or commentary in Lexis, Am Jur, or Wests and said that in the practice of any profession, there is simply too much knowledge and information contained in the books written as references for that profession for any person to adequately memorize. A professional knows where and how to find the answers.
>
Very well-said. You done good.
Stephen
>
> It is the trait of a technician (and a poor one at that) to believe he knows everything he needs to know without ever going back and reviewing and learning new things.
>
> Larry P
I wouldn't necessarily assign that trait as indicative of being a technician, Larry. It is merely indicative of sheer ignorance and unfortunately many roles played within this and other industries suffer from its' debilitating effects.
Stephen
I for one would like to know why you believe this to be a bad comment?
If you know everything then isn't life over?
> I think you did an excellent job related your checking your reference materials to what an attorney does. The only thing I might have added is that laws do change, so attorneys must keep current, but this is also true of surveyors so you might have explained how you kept up with current laws, i.e. conferences, continuing ed, etc.
>
> I often will put citations to my references in my file notes, (sometimes on plat also). I also in my file notes will sometimes notes other references that other surveyors might use as well as why I'm not using or am using that line of reasoning. It's good to always be able to say "I considered that alternative, but rejected it for the following reason. . ." It shows you took the time to make a well reasoned professional decision.
>
> Evelyn
Good points Evelyn. I have several books that I have two or more editions of just for the purpose of keeping up with changes to law and practice. As for the continuing ed, that was all covered in the qualification of me as an expert/reviewing my CV at the beginning of my testimony 1st time on the stand.
I also do that notes to the file thing. I also put a narrative on my RSs even though not required in CA. I forst saw that practice when I was at OIT and thought it was a good idea whether required or not. The effect is that when another surveyor encounters one of my monuments in the field and refers to my map, he or she had better have some very solid reasoning to reject the monument - or - it provides a solid basis for that next surveyor to base their decisions on.
See post by SC above.
"Few fallacies are more dangerous or easier to fall into than that by which, having read a given book, we assume that we will continue to know its contents permanently, or, having mastered a discipline in the past, we assume that we control it in the present. Philosophically speaking, "to learn" is a verb with no legitimate past tense."
Robert Grudin Time and the Art of Living
Well done Evan!!!
I use my references as much as possible, I would rather re-read something I am 90 percent sure of just to close that 10% gap. When I do pick up one of my books I tend to proceed down many tangents via the tabulated sections I have previously marked. Gives me just a quick recap of the source and basis of many of my own opinions.
Great Quote James. I gotta get that book!
Way back when I was but a "Butter Bar" I had a crusty NCO teach me how to build a "Smart Book".
He explained to me that while I thbought I did, I really DID NOT know everything. An Officer cannot possibly know all of the details of each MOS in his command, so it is a wise idea that when you come across a piece of relevant info that you will need later, you should make a copy of that data and put it in a binder. That soon grows into a thick "Smart Book". You still don't know everything, but you know where to find it.
My Carlson Smart Book and related survey info is filling up a 3" binder rapidly. Now everybody wants a copy. I keep it open on my desk daily.
> Great Quote James. I gotta get that book!
I've probably re-read that book a dozen times. I wholeheartedly recommend anything written by Bob Grudin, he was my faculty advisor at the University of Oregon.
Books?! We don't need no stinkin' books! There's only one right way to do a survey........and that's MY WAY. Stand back and learn, Young'n.
> "Few fallacies are more dangerous or easier to fall into than that by which, having read a given book, we assume that we will continue to know its contents permanently, or, having mastered a discipline in the past, we assume that we control it in the present. Philosophically speaking, "to learn" is a verb with no legitimate past tense."
>
> Robert Grudin Time and the Art of Living
When the student is ready, the master appears.
You're a good one, James Fleming
Don
Out of curiosity, George, why?
