I was reading a case where the surveyors used the monuments they found. It turned into a four-party legal action.
When I was younger I could have done more prove work but the guy I worked for was just interested in getting it done.
Below is where I found it.
I haven't finished reading the case yet, but I found the court's statement "We have not previously specifically included surveyors in our definition of professionals" to be most interesting...
It looks like standard findings about privity of contract, statutes of limitation, and the issue of justifiable reliance. Of course, we should verify - or prove - locations of found monuments. I'm not sure that I read that out of the case.
And yes, like Jim, I chuckle at the fact that we are not theology, medicine, or purveyors of law; how then, can we be considered professional?
It sounds like a surveyor was paid $600 to survey an as-built of a jiffy lube and relied on another surveyors monuments. Of course they need to do a boundary survey and make sure those monuments are correct. Who knows if they were moved or changed places since they were set. Also, how do we know the earlier survey was incorrect? (and while we're at it, a boundary survey would cost more than $600 I would guess)
It's a well-known "tenet" that if you accept another surveyor's corner, you accept any error it has. I don't think I saw the argument that the "Lamp" corners were wrong. I wonder who they relied on to make that claim? What survey showed the improvements encroaching that the as-built in question says wasn't closing.
Anway, yes, if you accept someone's monument, I think you need to make sure its right. You're a surveyor. A landowner should be able to rely on a monument a surveyor sets as being correct, I mean it is called a "monument" it it is placed in order to mark and memorialize the property for the owner.
They seem to be saying Nebraska requires privity of contract for Surveyor liability or at least it did in 1994.
That is definitely not the case in California; we have 3rd party liability (e.g. the client's adjoiners).
They refuse to include Surveyors in the statute of limitations for professionals without further action from the legislature although they had included other professionals, such as architects and engineers.
The whole case seems like a waste of time. When were the encroachments built? In reliance on the 1980 survey? A better course would be to investigate whether the 1980 monuments became established. Maybe the Title Company did, can't tell for sure.
I seem to be in agreement with most:
If a licensed surveyor has set his monuments in good faith, using standards and tools available, then he has successfully set "property corners" as contemplated by law. Our job as retracement surveyors is to follow the legally established property lines. If we find that some LEGAL, not MATHEMATICAL error has occurred, then we need to expose that legal failing and be ready to provide proof that it is illegal.
I think Warren is correct. 433 So.2d549 District Court of Appeal of Florida in C.Y. Tyson v. Robert B. Edwards No. 81-949 May 12, 1983.
the Court said in relation to boundaries: "Presumption as to Correctness and Regularity in establishing original boundary on ground, original surveyor is conclusively presumed to have been correct and if later surveyors find there is error in locations, measurements or otherwise such is error of last surveyor." In the Case the lot pins were found to be nearly 700 feet south of the existing Section Line and the Plat descriptions, but the monuments were found to hold.
It's important when reading case law to understand what they but also it's equally important to understand what they don't say.
Here we don't really know what happened; it could be the 1980 Surveyor was correct and everyone else was wrong. The case really only speaks to the statute of limitations for professional liability and it allows the appellant to reopen the case against Mr. 1980.
$600 for a survey on an occupied commercial site? Seems to me they paid for a cheap survey and they got a cheap survey. No sympathy here.
Prove/shmove. Absolute proof is next to impossible. It is MY OPINION that the monument found is the one reported to have been placed by Surveyor A in 19XX. It matches what he put on his plat. It appears to be of that potential age. It agrees closely in a mathematical way with what was expected to be the location of said monument. But, it could be a different monument, set by a different surveyor, at a different time and the first monument was removed. How do I know?
It might be the original monument but it could be in a different location.
i was really stumped by some monuments that I found in one survey - definitely original monuments with caps a little beat up, but identifiable to the plat (from 1970). Stayed up all night. NOT a matter of precision - I do not expect to match 1970 numbers on a plat with my tools, even with the tools used in 1970, it just didn't SEEM right. So, confessed to the landowner that there seemed to be a big problem.
Landowner's reply: "Oh heck, you mean those red colored pins? I moved those about 5 feet out so I could meet setbacks with my new house!" You don't need THOSE do you?
Case solved. Be ready for anything when doing a retracement. I have been accused of "blindly accepting every monument I find". I disagree!
Around here corners aren't monumented. So there are no 'original corners' any corners found have been set by a retracing surveyor by using maps and old records.
So then you must decide how close to the record does a found pin have to be to be accepted.
I can see 0.3' or even more being acceptable in areas where properties are big. Especially in more rural settings. But once lots are 50x100' and neighbors are fighting over 0.1' and lots sell for 500k it gets dicey.
Great comments from all of you. I liked the word in a reply that used "Tenet".
After reading your comments I remembered a phrase from long ago and I have a question.
What is "Breach of statuary duties". and how or would the phrase apply to a surveying field ?
Rich., post: 362932, member: 10450 wrote: Around here corners aren't monumented. So there are no 'original corners' any corners found have been set by a retracing surveyor by using maps and old records.
So then you must decide how close to the record does a found pin have to be to be accepted.
I can see 0.3' or even more being acceptable in areas where properties are big. Especially in more rural settings. But once lots are 50x100' and neighbors are fighting over 0.1' and lots sell for 500k it gets dicey.
How are you "off" if there isn't any monuments, what are you "off" to?
I'm not being argumentative, I really just don't understand how it works, there must be something to pin down locations.
MightyMoe, post: 362974, member: 700 wrote: How are you "off" if there isn't any monuments, what are you "off" to?
I'm not being argumentative, I really just don't understand how it works, there must be something to pin down locations.
Some areas yes. Some areas no. Many subdivisions show proposed monuments at some of the road PCs and such, however once the plat was filed nobody enforced this and a lot of areas the monuments were never put in. Lot corners were never marked.
It's unfortunate if you ask me.
But that was just my question I guess.
I did a job last week and found 2 monuments shown on a plat. Everything is 90 degrees. Once at my 'corner' there was a pin I was very close to....4" this pin still has fresh paint and probably was set very recently. The subdivision is from the 20s. So based on this, I did gather evidence to 'accept' the pin, so I'm supposed to just 'accept' the pin and forget those possible 4"? I can see if this is an old pin or pipe. Here is pic of said pin....
A little bit of topic but, I got a call from an attorney just yesterday about a survey I had just completed. I had found 3 planted stones which were called for. Each one had an iron of some sort drove up beside it witnessing them, I labeled as such. The attorney asked me about the stones and said she had never seen a survey that actually showed a found stone and asked me to send her pictures like she thought I was lying or something. You have to be able to prove what you found even when it's obvious.
DELETED USER, post: 362879, member: 8983 wrote: I was reading a case where the surveyors used the monuments they found. It turned into a four-party legal action.
When I was younger I could have done more prove work but the guy I worked for was just interested in getting it done.
Below is where I found it.
Seems the court was trying to pass the buck on who is a professional, or what is a professional service. It doesn't seem to have worked. The court gives its definition from previous cases but then says it refuses to even consider the issue because the legislature should list the occupations that are professions for purposes of the statute.
So, look at the current statute. It is made up almost entirely of decisions by the court:) No decisions on surveyors shown but one says abstractors are professionals and another says real estate brokers are not. So the statute is/was regularly being revised to reflect court decisions and the court is refusing to make the decisions anymore?
AT any rate, it would seem the statute was written for the specific purpose of protecting someone in Lamp's position.
Working on one right now where the client of course wonders why I can't just locate two quick rebars and go from there. No, I have to locate all of them and then some, analyze the deed and surrounding deeds, come up with a defensible opinion on the lines of the parcel, then finally where the structure is located in relation to my opinion; not some 20 year old opinion from someone else. In fact, in NY, even it was my own 20 year old survey, a full review and field visit sufficient to corroborate the older work is required for any update (by board rule). The fee quotes I hear of make me wonder how many follow the same procedures as I do, and as are required.
"So then you must decide how close to the record does a found pin have to be to be accepted.
I can see 0.3' or even more being acceptable in areas where properties are big. Especially in more rural settings. But once lots are 50x100' and neighbors are fighting over 0.1' and lots sell for 500k it gets dicey."
So I assume your state legislature and/or courts have finally decided the age old issue of "how far is too far"? Are the rules/laws that definitely identify "how far off is good enough" really based on parcel size and value? What are, exactly, the size and value limits for say 0.13'? I, and many others would be very interested in seeing these definitive decisions/statutes?
Ok, Ok, maybe I should have used the sarcasm font.
What worries me, is when the land value goes up, and you have to come adjust the pins to the higher-order of precision. I hate it when that happens.
Rich., post: 362932, member: 10450 wrote: Around here corners aren't monumented. So there are no 'original corners' any corners found have been set by a retracing surveyor by using maps and old records.
So then you must decide how close to the record does a found pin have to be to be accepted.
I can see 0.3' or even more being acceptable in areas where properties are big. Especially in more rural settings. But once lots are 50x100' and neighbors are fighting over 0.1' and lots sell for 500k it gets dicey.
Just set all the corners on every one of your jobs and you can't be wrong....it sounds like your corners would be the only thing to go by?
That's another reason I always set corners....the next guy will find them and hopefully use them...
