So we do mostly urban surveys but we were asked to bid on a large woods project. We've done a few mid sized woods topos but nothing this big (80 acres @ 1 foot contours and trees 8" and up). Average woods... Some thick some not, no leaves yet, nothing too steep bit some small hills. I do have some idea of how much we can get done in a day but how about you guys?
If +/-0.10 Elev is good enough and if I have two experienced rodmen who know what to shoot and why, I would set control with my GPS and shoot chase two rods with the 235 hooked up to a TDS driven HP48. I do a bunch of topo's this way and it's the fastest for me. 6-8hrs on the job.
I get about 150 to 200 shots per hour this way with my two favorite rodmen. We run two rods like this alot. Assuming the 'seeing' is good through the timber and my rodmen are hoofing it. They're also doing a little more than just catching the breaklines.
If there's streams, each tree needs to be shot, structures, etc. the process will slow down by half quickly. Yes, I do take my time and sight elev's on drainage structures, PCC, etc. so my tolerances get better, but ground shots are in the prism.
Keep in mind, I'm also drawing my own stuff, so I'm not doing any line work.
Steve
Keep in mind, I'm also drawing my own stuff, so I'm not doing any line work.
That sounds a tad contradictory ?
Shooting the line work and drawing it with the codes while you are looking at the sight should save you tons of time when you draw it up.
Especially on a topo with the 3d breaklines. You can do the linework AND the associated breaklines in one fell swoop in the field. It's all done. All you have to do in the office is "pretty it up", build your surface and contour away. Bingo!! 95 percent done. That's much faster than having to retrace the 3d breaklines.
Actually, doing the line work in the field is a simple coding item and takes no real additional time in the field. Two or three alpha characters and it's all done.
One of the main reasons we switched to Carlson Survey was the ability to use the same basic program on a Toughbook via Carlson Field so that the crews could code the line work and see every shot graphically in the field. Take the shot, the line is drawn, the symbols are added, labels are placed on selected items. We've cut field time significantly and the offuce time is mainly in building surfaces and adding contours. The rest ia already done.
But then, I guess everyone has their favorite way to do stuff and that's fine with me. If I can turn out quality work faster and thus less costly, then that is a "good" for me.
If there's a ton of heard breaks- streams, roads, landscaping, your absoulutely correct. If it's an 80 bordered by a road on one or two sides where the only hard breaks are the road x-sec then no.
If I have too much to enter on my end I become the limiting factor slowing down my rod men. My FC2500 is fine for one man work with a bunch of coding, but when I get into a situation where I want to get a bunch of anonymous ground shots quick it seems to go faster my way.
Steve
We are getting to that time of year where you quote a thick wooded project based on no leaves, but the client dawdles for a bit before signing the proposal, and something, maybe it is other oblications or bad weather, pops up and you find yourself out there as the leaves are emerging and all that great visibility just vanishes. Be careful.
80 acres seems like a lot of tree survey to jump into, if your business model is small boundary. I'm saying this from the crew perspective, and having done eight acres of tree survey (4"+)and topo, in the middle of summer, in S.E. Texas. 250 trees +/-.
This is what it looked like:
but the client dawdles for a bit before signing the proposal
The leaves come on and you'll be there a week if there's any underbrush. Has it been grazed in the last few years?
Steve
What's the density of the trees over 8"? Mature hardwoods? Do you have to describe each tree by species and size? If you have more than one rodman / crew, keeping track of which trees were shot and which ones were not can be a headache. I usually put a paint dot ON THE GROUND next to the tree, not on the tree itself (clients don't want to see every tree painted). Very large trees may require more than one shot if they are not straight.
I agree with what someone said above. Client pulls the trigger in July and you're going to spend 5 times the effort.
Here is a tree topo estimating method that I learned while working in georgia. You have to go out to the site and walk it.
1. Walk out into the site, far enough that you can barely see out to the road. Keep up with your pace so you have an idea of the distance.
2. Now just start counting the trees that you can see.
example: you count 85 trees in a 200' radius.
so there are 85 trees per 125,663 square feet, or 85 trees per 2.88 acres. that boils down to 29.5 trees per acre.
keep walking and do a few more counts to get a good average.
while walking, keep an eye out for topo features that will need special attention.
Now that you have an idea of how many trees you need to locate, you can estimate how much time you will be on the site.
based on the distance you could see, you can estimate how many set-ups will be required.
ex: if you can see 200' radius, you can topo 2.88 acres per set-up. so thats 28 set-ups.
now estimate how long the crew will take to finish a setup. lets say 3.5 hours. comes out to be 98 hours on site.
add 20% for office time and your at 118 hours.
I would make sure to include some language that my proposal was good for 30 days. or less.
Hope that helps you. I made a spreadsheet for this, so now all i have to do is plug in the sight distance average, ann job size, and it spits out the time on site.
If I have too much to enter on my end I become the limiting factor slowing down my rod men. My FC2500 is fine for one man work with a bunch of coding, but when I get into a situation where I want to get a bunch of anonymous ground shots quick it seems to go faster my way.
Yoy are teaching me a lot from a field perspective and I thank you for that.
I am the "office guy" that has pushed the Field To Finish portion of Carlson Survey in our office, so I can understand what you are saying about coding.
First thing I had to do was to invoke the KISS system. With the rare exception, all of my descriptor codes are a maximum of 4 characters long. (If you are coding and the rod guy gets ahead of you, then you need to take a close look at your descriptor codes.)
With short descriptor codes I can then start the crews out on using only the line codes of +7, -7, CLO and JPN to start. (We will work the others in as we grow used to the system.) This is a good beginning point for the new guys and allows everyone to get comfortable with this system.
A few crews are playing with the multiple line codes to draw symbols and line work at one time with one multiple code. Makes shooting overhead utilities a snap.
In our area we VERY seldom hit an area that does not have breakline features on it, hard or soft. In an average year I may have 2 tracts that I can just jump on the surface and go for it, so I am a strong believer on the codes being done by the guy actually looking at the site.
I've been drawing maps for 44 years and the easier and more accurate I can make it, the better. 😉
I always figure 4-5 acres a day.
Trees 8" and up? Good luck. You could be there forever.
> I always figure 4-5 acres a day.
>
> Trees 8" and up? Good luck. You could be there forever.
I've heard that City of Jacksonville has a tree ordinance that in certain cases protects trees down to 6" DBH. That could be a lot of trees to locate.
The Bow Tie Surveyor
In really thick areas, we cut out our grid first and can probably locate 4 acres/day. If it is nice, mature woods we can probably get 6-10 acres per day. I think the roads are the most complicated because of the office work required, and I use FTF linework. I charge per tree. Probably $5/tree for something that size.
:good:
I would recommend using approximate parallel traverse lines aligned more or less with the drainage. Set the lines 1.8x the average distance trees can be aquired from the typical setup. Utilize compass and tape for the few trees that are not directly tied. Think of the project in phases: 1)flag traverses line, 2)brush lines, 3)set traverse 4) ties. Much time is lost in shifting from one process to to another and back again. Use two rodman it will add more than 20% to the production on this type of project.
Costing given average undergrowth: 3 setups/hour X 6.5 hours/day X 50' between setups at 150' width per setup, area covered 3.4 acrs ±. I know 6.5 hours is a short day, but actual production time, after travel and intial setup/break down, lunch...
There is the concept, adjust for undergrowth, crew strengh and season.
Greg
> 6-8hrs on the job.
Are you saying that you can do 80 acres with all trees 8" and up included in 6 hours?
(After bringing control to the site with GPS.)
> In really thick areas, we cut out our grid first and can probably locate 4 acres/day. If it is nice, mature woods we can probably get 6-10 acres per day.
about right