And that, good sir, is what is wrong with our profession
> Lock boxes. Top secret decoder ring stuff. Nobody's business but mine and my client and if he ever tells anybody I'll have to kill them both.
No, not even close. The information is just buried away in the public records in places that even a title insurance company isn't obligated to search, such as the Minutes of the Austin City Council and the records of the early 20th-century City Engineers, some of which are buried in the city library's historical collection.
Land surveyors are paid for expertise and assembling the narrative that connects those disparate pieces is some of the expertise required to make a correct survey in that part of downtown Austin. It takes time, and lots of it, to learn all the details. If someone wanted to jet in from Oklahoma City to try to do it, they'd need probably a month to spend on just the background research. This is the big time, not some time share mobile home park.
And that, good sir, is what is wrong with our profession
>
> Land surveyors are paid for expertise and assembling the narrative that connects those disparate pieces is some of the expertise required to make a correct survey in that part of downtown Austin. It takes time, and lots of it, to learn all the details. If someone wanted to jet in from Oklahoma City to try to do it, they'd need probably a month to spend on just the background research. This is the big time, not some time share mobile home park.
:good: :good:
If a dirtbag maneuver like that passes the muster, the guys who have established reputable practices will all of a sudden have to compete with drive-byes and will find themselves with a lot of time on their hands and eventually will dedicate themselves to conducting polls on this forum, since they've already seen all the "Days of our lives" re-runs 🙂
How far out could the survey be?
> I find this particular post somewhat amusing and would like to ask why an "okie" would be so "incompetent" to carry out this survey? Please excuse my ignorance, i am not familiar how your cadastre system works in the U.S. (I plan to compile an article illustrating how ours works and would like to compare it to other countries..)
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Nic.
I take it you're South African (not knowing all the facts), In my opinion it would be akin to you coming over and giving it a shot:-)
And that, good sir, is what is wrong with our profession
I'm just curious who kent's #4 is. Pretty sure I know who 1-3 are.
How far out could the survey be?
> I find this particular post somewhat amusing and would like to ask why an "okie" would be so "incompetent" to carry out this survey?
The problem of surveying land boundaries in the oldest part of Austin's Central Business District is one that anyone not familiar with the historical facts specific to that area would be unable to do well. The fact that Okies are taking their shot just means that a certain level of cluelessness is practically guaranteed. I'm reasonably certain that paden cash would recognize the pitfalls and Norman Oklahoma is now Norman Oregon, I believe.
The public records typically describe the properties by reference to "the map of the City of Austin on file in the General Land Office", a lithograph map published in 1839 that is one of the few records that the original surveyors who laid out the roughly mile-square original City of Austin left. However, every charter that the City of Austin has operated under since that time granted the city certain rights with respect to the public streets and there is an extensive record of actions of the Austin City Council taken in exercise of those rights.
Combine those details with the records of various lawsuits at early dates and the uneven history of nineteenth century surveying and surveying land boundaries actually requires real expertise, not mere technical proficiency.
The performance standard is most jurisdictions would be that of local competent licensed surveyor. Of course, the public perception of surveyors in the area will be tarnished if (which according this post sounds likely) the survey is in error. Note that most states require self policing. If the firm/licensee fails to monument, record, etc...then it is incumbent on those local surveyors to file a proper complaint with the board, which I assume would be done in this case as, according to this post, there is no way this firm can competently complete this survey. Unless of course, TX doesn't require self policing.
How far out could the survey be?
It would seem reasonable that the reason these select three or four are the ONLY ones who could do a survey is limited to the fact that they have done multiple surveys very close or adjacent to this site and have not made any of their existing survey data available to the remainder of the world. Is this true?
Kent, give the Okie the benefit of the doubt
> So, who are pointing your finger towards in this?
> It seems that an ALTA would be necessary so the attorneys/bankers are deciding the best for themselves.
Yes, it definitely is a comedy of errors. First, you've got a buyer who is (I assume) laying out between twenty and thirty million for half a block of downtown Austin, but isn't sophisticated enough to realize that getting a proper survey of the property is an extremely important element of the transaction both for purposes of title insurance and for planning future use.
And that, good sir, is what is wrong with our profession
> I'm just curious who kent's #4 is. Pretty sure I know who 1-3 are.
As an optimist, I'm holding a place open in case someone shows up to fill it.
It's karma, Kent...
..payback for all the Texas boys that slam-dunked their Okie shingle to work for the oilies that slash and burn their way across 53 sections in three days and file found bottle caps as corners. (i'm trying to be humorous Andy...don't take it personal)
Seriously there are good surveyors residing in Oklahoma that are also licensed in Texas. But your observation that a knowlegeable surveyor would understand the complexity and decline the work is probably astute.
Instead of fearing the worst, hope for the best. Maybe they will get one or two of the corners within a foot or two. :pinch:
ps - I bet all their work will be with RTK.....:snarky:
Kent, give the Okie the benefit of the doubt
> > So, who are pointing your finger towards in this?
> > It seems that an ALTA would be necessary so the attorneys/bankers are deciding the best for themselves.
>
> Yes, it definitely is a comedy of errors. First, you've got a buyer who is (I assume) laying out between twenty and thirty million for half a block of downtown Austin, but isn't sophisticated enough to realize that getting a proper survey of the property is an extremely important element of the transaction both for purposes of title insurance and for planning future use.
Por que no
Maybe they are trying to make more work in the future for the attorney brotherhood. Then it also may be about 'connections'.
There is an attorney here that can get anything passed before any parish or city council, P&Z commission and other various public agencies.
His billable hours may pile up but it will be done.
They televise the meetings here, do sometimes it is fun to wave some popcorn and watch him work. Sort of like watching a circus act of dogs jumping though hoops, spinning and prancing while he gives them treats.
And that, good sir, is what is wrong with our profession
KM, GS, BO. Anyone else?
I don't know ALL of downtown, but I'm pretty familiar with a good number of spots.
How far out could the survey be?
No- more like the other surveyors aren't asking for it, or don't even know where to look. I've personally consulted with (who I assume to be) 1-3 on Kent's list, including Kent. Every last one has been more than amenable to sharing their info and knowledge. Not sure what else they're supposed to do- monitor the survey requests and contracts of every job being done downtown? On any given day, that could number in the dozens.
It's karma, Kent...
Wait, what? Which Andy are you dragging into this mudhole topic?
I'm licensed in Oklahoma but I have yet to do a survey there. I have reviewed some mapping projects, but my Okie stamp is as yet unused.
I'm cutting my teeth on PLSS projects in North Dakota. It's actually been some fun work as I learn how to use the cookbook. So far, much easier to retrace than some of the clusterfudges I have followed in West Texas.
I see the same problem in West Texas. People come out there with absolutely no clue on the nuances of how the surveys were done or corrected and blow through the original evidence in favor of a prorated corner calculation. I've seen some bad surveying in the last 12 months and one who I am trying to find enough evidence to submit to the board.
Just because you have a Texas ticket doesn't mean you are qualified to practice in all the various regions. It takes lots of time and research and preferably a contact with a surveyor who has local knowledge to get to the point of competency in different areas.
And that, good sir, is what is wrong with our profession
While I have my misgivings about Karl Marx, George Sanders is definitely on the list. I'd also say that though Barack Obama is an extremely competent person with a deep knowledge of history, I would be very surprised if he knew that much about the history of surveys in downtown Austin.
And that, good sir, is what is wrong with our profession
Communism Land Surveying is the riddle of history solved, and it knows itself to be this solution.
Karl Marx
And that, good sir, is what is wrong with our profession
> Communism Land Surveying is the riddle of history solved, and it knows itself to be this solution.
>
> Karl Marx
Okay, we'll keep KM on the list, then.
And that, good sir, is what is wrong with our profession
George Sanders co-starred in a really bad movie, "From Earth to the Moon" (1958), also starring Joseph Cotton. It's a real stinker except for George Sanders who pretty much carries the whole movie single handedly.
He was extremely talented, able to shine through as an actor when everyone else on the movie was pretty much doing the worst acting job of their lives.
How far out could the survey be?
How about filing their surveys in the public record like those of us in recording states?
And that, good sir, is what is wrong with our profession
a practical case in point- at my former place of employment i was once charged with doing an ALTA on a small tract just a few blocks north of the governor's mansion. the (civil) firm had previously surveyed and built a bunch of stuff along both sides of that particular stretch of right-of-way in the 20 years prior.
was a bit of a gimme survey, fee-wise, for a friend of a principal. the site was directly across the street from a previous survey i had done, so i was obviously familiar with the area, as well as the governor's mansion block that i'd done not a year earlier. monuments are either hard to come by or else the amount of conflict between any given two would give any decent surveyor a case of dandruff.
end up shooting in known existing centerline about 6 blocks in every direction, lot and block corners in about the same radius, and- finally- building corners 5 blocks north and 5 blocks south of the site on both sides of the right-of-way. interesting pattern appeared in that everything older than about 1940 (going all the way back to a couple of the oldest buildings in town) was fairly well in-line with each other, and everything newer was fairly in-line with each other and parallel to the older stuff, except shifted 4 feet to the east.
turns out, after going to the city and digging through actual field books from the teens-thirties, at some point a later city engineer either mis-calculated or mis-stated a baseline offset for the right-of-way (later, i found out, as a result of consulting Kent, that this likely occurred immediately subsequent to the removal of existing trolley tracks).
so, essentially, i have to go the boss (a highly competent, conscientious, and honorable man) and tell him that, in my opinion, 80+ stories of office buildings and parking garages that he'd signed off on since 1990 or so were potentially 4' into public r.o.w. (oh, and that i'd spent about 50K on a survey that we were collecting a fee of a roughly a tenth of that). he wasn't exactly tickled by the pronouncement, but we immediately had a powwow with the head honcho of the title company where i presented the dossier. my survey was run through the ringer by the title company, the attorneys, the city, and i personally went to the GLO and spent an afternoon reviewing with them. in the end, the title company couldn't find compelling evidence contradicting my analysis, nor could anyone else.
i have no idea what, if anything, has transpired with any property along that stretch of street in the 6 or 7 years past. the old building is still sitting there (turns out they ran into a whole new problem- one of verticality- that they didn't anticipate prior to the survey), and i haven't heard a peep about it since. all i know that the information is there, but you have to go looking for it. and whether ignorance or workload is what prevents a lot of guys from looking for it, i don't know. but it's there if you do the work to find it.
