How far out could the survey be?
well, i wouldn't be opposed to that idea. however, i suspect there'd be a fair amount of resistance from the filing clerks and general public around here. i don't know that for sure, but i'd suspect it. people in these parts tend to be rather protective of "their" information- and our local clerk, at least, can't seem to take half a day away from electioneering to move our recording system off microfiche.
How far out could the survey be?
> How about filing their surveys in the public record like those of us in recording states?
Actually, the missing part is the 200-page narrative history from 1839 to present. Essentially, you're asking why there aren't 177 years worth of recorded maps of surveys in the district.
There are plenty of metes and bounds descriptions in the public records, probably more than 2/3 of which are mistaken in some significant way. That is one of the research tasks: to examine the records of all previous surveys reflected in the public records for at least a block in all directions. Without the background knowledge, though, you wouldn't have any basis for deciding which were really useful toward the task at hand.
There is probably a similar problem in a recording state, i.e. figuring out which records of surveys are erroneous junk and which are gold.
I wouldn't hire an RPLS who slams an entire State without knowing the other surveyor.
Ok, but where is that a topic here?
> I wouldn't hire an RPLS who slams an entire State without knowing the other surveyor.
I wish I were wrong about what I've read about Oklahoma, but this case is pretty clearly exactly in line with expectations. I mean, sure, it's nice to pretend that all surveyors are super-competent and super-diligent, but beyond a certain point continuing that belief suggests a certain willful detachment from reality.
Regardless of the thread title, it seemed to be a major component of the early posts. Denigrating the entire population of Professionals in the State of Oklahoma is ridiculous. It serves no purpose other than to demonstrate a major short-coming in the author.
As for the subject at hand I would hope there is more to the story. I would not suggest a Surveyor be fired based on the location of his office. Did he hire a local on as a consultant? Do they have someone on staff who spent time working in Austin? Are there any other of a multitude of things here that would have made it a good idea to bring these folks in? If he was so gravely concerned did he contact that Surveyor first?
In the end he may have saved the owner from an issue. If the manner in which it was described is any indication, it couldn't have been handled worse.
That is the connection, Tom
I've worked in a wide range of places over the years. There are incompetent folks of every stripe across the land. There are also diligent Professionals in those places. I worked in Austin quite a few years back. If I assigned was I observed to all Texas Surveyors you wouldn't like the image. I would also be dead wrong.
As is to often the case, you obviously have vast amounts to contribute. Unfortunately you can't do it without needlessly insulting people who haven't earned it.
> As is to often the case, you obviously have vast amounts to contribute. Unfortunately you can't do it without needlessly insulting people who haven't earned it.
Well, with any luck I'll get to see whether I've been unfair in my immediate assessment or not. I'd lay the probability at 0.999 that I'm right.
I don't doubt that there are at least several competent Oklahoma licensees. Paden Cash and Norman Oregon are obvious examples. It hasn't been lost on me that paden would be an exception to just about any rule one cared to state, however.
That you were unfair is undeniable. Correct or incorrect remains to be seen...
> That you were unfair is undeniable. Correct or incorrect remains to be seen...
I suppose that if I hadn't read for years about Oklahoma surveying practice, it might seem a bit precipitous, but I have.
On top of that, add the bare facts of this case which involves a survey factory in Oklahoma City attempting to perform a land survey of one of the more difficult areas of Austin and it's a pretty obvious plot line.
It may seem unfair to say that it is possible to identify the fleecier survey operations just from the claims of their websites, but in my experience the odds are surpassingly good.
Bionicman,
If you were aware of the history of the board here, you would know that Kent has slammed the Okies and Ok culture for 15 years or so. These posts go back to the old RPLS days when everything was wild and open with no rules. So everyone had a to have a tough skin back then.Some exchanges between him and various Okie surveyors are legendary. Some were a constant antagonism that was conducted in a civil matter. Some were not.
I am surprised that Kent has warmed up to Paden and Norman OK. He used to have amiable posts on the old board with Bob M too. Posts by Deral P. aka ‘Trimble man’ and tent were always interesting for the banter.
So you got to take these Okie posts with a grain of salt and see the historical context. I guess similar and ironic to what he is venting about with OK surveyors dropping into Austin with no historical knowledge.
Kent may be needed to be reminded that the lineage of all these posts go back to Mark Deal, an OK surveyor who had a vision for a surveyor’s message board and made it happen.
I think that old posters here will always remember a post Kent made that had the line. "ignore the midget in the corner". It was a classic but that was back when every post was freestyle.
I guess all those posts were lost in the RPLS archives over at the magazine site.
https://rpls.co m"> http://web.archive.org/web/19990715000000*/https://rpls.com
From the wayback machine (almost 20 years ago!):
> > That you were unfair is undeniable. Correct or incorrect remains to be seen...
Ah, I've just seen the maps produced by the Okies. I'm afraid that I was 100% correct about everything. It was a movie I've seen before too many times to expect a different ending.
Kent, give the Okie the benefit of the doubt
> Por que no
> Maybe they are trying to make more work in the future for the attorney brotherhood. Then it also may be about 'connections'.
>
> There is an attorney here that can get anything passed before any parish or city council, P&Z commission and other various public agencies.
> His billable hours may pile up but it will be done.
> They televise the meetings here, do sometimes it is fun to wave some popcorn and watch him work. Sort of like watching a circus act of dogs jumping though hoops, spinning and prancing while he gives them treats.
one upside to doing this kind of work around here these days is you're mostly dealing with pretty sophisticated clients who have been to the rodeo before, and understand the risk/reward matrix as it relates to survey cost vs. the potential pitfalls of building a skyscraper half a foot into a r.o.w., or encroaching upon the labyrinth of license agreements and/or easements that blanket downtown. Sometimes you don't get that kind of client. but these are very interesting times locally. This is the fourth economic upturn cycle I've been through since I started surveying, and I don't recall any of the others being nearly so insane as this. Downtown is going vertical quickly. The need for thorough and accurate surveys is paramount, and sadly I don't think the city is going to be able to lead the way. It will ultimately be the responsibility of us who do work in downtown to make sure it doesn't devolve into something that resembles neither the intent nor the delineation of the original surveyors and/or city planners. What it's in real danger of becoming- rapidly- is an indecipherable mess.
Kent, give the Okie the benefit of the doubt
> Downtown is going vertical quickly. The need for thorough and accurate surveys is paramount, and sadly I don't think the city is going to be able to lead the way. It will ultimately be the responsibility of us who do work in downtown to make sure it doesn't devolve into something that resembles neither the intent nor the delineation of the original surveyors and/or city planners. What it's in real danger of becoming- rapidly- is an indecipherable mess.
Yes, the phenomenon of clueless folks from BF, Oklahoma showing up is a really, really bad omen. I blame the idiots who hire these characters and the licensing boards who should have withdrawn their privileges years ago as much as I do the actual miscreants.
Kent, we've found your Okie culprit!
Caught him red-handed on UHF channel 73 peddling his surveys...
I think he wants to work down there just for the BBQ...;-)
Kent, give the Okie the benefit of the doubt
I had no idea we had a city engineer dating back to 1850. :-S
Your research back to that date will turn up another McMillan as our county clerk at around 1850 or so.
Kent, give the Okie the benefit of the doubt
> I had no idea we had a city engineer dating back to 1850. :-S
>
> Your research back to that date will turn up another McMillan as our county clerk at around 1850 or so.
Technically, the job description was City Surveyor back in the 1830's and 1840's and was held first by George H. Bringhurst (1839-1840) and then by Jacob Rothhaars, (1840-1845?) In 1867, the office described as that of City (civil) Engineer and Surveyor was created by City Ordinance which specified that the officeholder was to be elected annually by the Council and whose duty was "to make and furnish the Council or Mayor estimates and drawings of all public works and improvements, and all other civil engineering required by the City Council."
William Henry Griffin was the first holder of that office until his health failed in late 1870. His obituary published in March 30, 1871 described him in these familiar terms:
“Upon the termination of the war, Col. Griffin decided to make Houston his home and here he has continued to reside, practicing his profession as civil engineer and surveyor until incapacitated by the feeble state of his health.
"Col. Griffin possessed a remarkable clear and comprehensive mind, and up to this fatal illness was a constant student. His language was always forcible and pointed. You could always get at his meaning. He was moreover remarkable for his iron will and indomitable energy. There was nothing lukewarm in this character. As friend or foe you knew exactly where to place him.”
Kent, we've found your Okie culprit!
> I think he wants to work down there just for the BBQ..
I think the long-distance, remote-control style of practice probably views barbecue lunch via the body cameras implanted in all employees along with the GPS tracking chips.
How far out could the survey be?
>
> There is probably a similar problem in a recording state, i.e. figuring out which records of surveys are erroneous junk and which are gold.
There is, but no where near to the extent there is in a non-recording state. A good rule of thumb is that ifthere is not enough information on a survey to be able to tell if its good or not, it probably isn't.