Inspired by Norman Oklahoma's question about describing curves, let me ask about dirt roads.
Given deeds that convince you the boundary is the center line of the traveled portion of a dirt road, and the best description so far goes something like "thence northerly along the center line of town highway 1 a distance of 600 feet, more or less, to a point...." The highway twists and turns. Needless to say, neither of the descriptions of the lots on either side of the road provide enough information to decide if they close.
Also, the road has a variety of edge material. Flat grass in some areas, some rock wall, some trees, and some drainage ditches.
So do you even attempt to calculate a series of curves that will approximate the center line? If so, different distances would lead to different results. For example, if there is a more-or-less straight section and surveyor A placed stations every 100', but surveyor B put stations every 10', their center lines might disagree by, perhaps, 2'. Would you have a stationing distance in mind that you would consider proper?
Specify that the intent is to follow the centerline of the dirt road as it appears on such and such a date followed by the series of metes and bounds that further describe the road. The call to the centerline of the road would override the metes and bounds anyhow by order of evidence. But I would still work up a series of curves and tangents to try and best fit the road at this point in time to aid a retracing surveyor.
Might be best to monument pc's pt's, angle points. Calling them out in the description.
Regardless of how you do it, how would someone dispute your calls to any degree of accuracy? I always feel pretty good about doing boundary work with creeks. That's one line I KNOW I can explain, and if someone comes from the other side with a slightly different location...meh. As long as it's more or less in the same spot, it's the creek.
That's a bad idea on most dirt roads I've seen. The monument either stands up and becomes a hazard or potholes form around it.
True about the difficulty of putting a monument in the center of a dirt road. However monumenting the edge of the right-of-way would allow the landowners and town highway crews to notice if scraping the road with a grader is gradually moving the road one way or the other.
I've run across such vague descriptions many times. Don't over complicate things & be sure to check adjoiners deeds, and talk to the county DOT guy. First ya gotta figure out the side & rear lines, then just run a convenient meander line along the edge of the road, say perhaps on a 30' offset, with some direct ties to the centerline. Set your monuments and just describe that line. Much like you would do if it were a creek or some water body. Then you've got a closed description and can determine the correct acreage. The assessor and/or owner will either love you or.....
We bury them at least a foot down. When we find one near the surface ( do to grading etc) we lower it. It's fairly common with Section Corners too. Another idea is offset monuments on the R/W edge.
> So do you even attempt to calculate a series of curves that will approximate the center line? If so, different distances would lead to different results. For example, if there is a more-or-less straight section and surveyor A placed stations every 100', but surveyor B put stations every 10', their center lines might disagree by, perhaps, 2'. Would you have a stationing distance in mind that you would consider proper?
Really? Maybe I do not understand what you are saying, but what difference does it make what the stationing is on a more-or-less straight section of road? I think two surveyors doing their best to follow the centerline with whatever length curves they feel work best would end within a few tenths of each other after 600 feet of road.
Some of us older guys that can remember hand chaining know that if you pull a 100 foot chain with a tree on-line that bends the chain off-line by one foot in the middle it will only measure .02' off of true length. You would think it would make more of an error, but check it in your CAD.
Scott
From my experience in describing
dirt or gravel roads we "chord" them and the describe it as being XXX.XX feet along the centerline of YYY Road, with the following bearings and distances. Then we monument (buried deep) the end points of the line and/or offsets out of the traveled way. Then, even if the road "moves" a following surveyor has some evidence (even if it mathematic) to locate the end points.
Andy
A good P.O.L. entering and departing the r/w is common in most colonial States.
Thence run Northerly along the center line of town highway 1 (to whatever), but generally the following courses and distances: (chord bearings and distances)
The problem with just Northerly 600' is it creates an ambiguity that you can't plot it, compute acreage, check the closure, etc. I hate getting a deed worded like that. At least give a chord bearing and distance along the road if it's sort of straight.
When I locate rural roads I locate the driven center line and the back of bank.
As these roads are maintained, the driven center line will change location.
In making a first time description of the road I attempt to arrive at a best fit situation by using the back of bank and other stable features along the road that are an indication of the limits of the existing road and positions that do not change as often as the driven center line.
When deed calls exist within the roadway, I relocate that boundary by seniority of the boundaries involved and as it fits the limits of the roadway.
I do not consider the driven roadway center line to control the road's location because it does not change naturally like a stream or creek. The culverts, back of bank, bridges and end of slopes are rather stationary features and more reliable as to locating a road's position.
Monuments should be set on the R/W at the angle points, PC and PT.
I like writing a metes and bounds of the R/W rather than a center line with offsets.
0.02
Have to consider the whole history of the dirt road, especially in curves. There is a tendency to flatten out the curves when roads are regraded over time, to accomnodate higher sppeds of autos (if the road predates autos). I have seen where the lines of occupation are considered, like old stone walls. A lot to consider.
I really appreciate threads like this, opens my eyes t oother considerations.
If the deeds say to the center of the road it's already described isn't it? I don't think you should change it. If you do change it you need to get both adjoiners to agree to the new description and enter it into the record. Could be an agreement to the location of the boundary or even go so far as a lot line adjustment with quit-claim deeds.
On a survey you could show a bearing/distance/curve going down the center of the drive path probably smoothed out a bit to keep it from being overly complicated. That would serve to show where the road is per your survey but keep it out of the title records. Your survey is evidence of where the location of the road is at this time and not a control of the title to the land. The title call is to the center of the road.
I describe the C/L of the road using tangents and curve data as it was located on such and such a date. Unimproved roads migrate over time, I like to have the boundary's stable with no question about what was intended at the time the first description was recorded. Have seen unimproved roads migrate away from the original location and over more time migrate back because of erosion or maintenance. Obtaining good center line data is not difficult, even if there are compound or revers curves in place. An eyeball used with a plumb bob string does wonders for locating intersections for the PI's, with the PI's you can define the average tangent length then measuring and recording the external for a later check, the route is defined so it will all be withing the ROW width called for or newly created and stated based on your data. Hate angle points for roads and canals, for short radius curves, those roads and canals often are found to be outside of the described right of ways.
jud
We just locate the centerline as fit simple curves to it. Sure, another surveyor would come along and get a different answer, but the intent is the CL of the road so no big deal. Wen would never think of monumenting any of the PC's or PT's because these non-layed out roads can only be approximated with simple curves.
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> Monuments should be set on the R/W at the angle points, PC and PT.
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On a dirt road???? We'd be littering the edge of ROW with irons if we monument these curvy dirt roads. They are nothing but upgraded cow paths.
> True about the difficulty of putting a monument in the center of a dirt road. However monumenting the edge of the right-of-way would allow the landowners and town highway crews to notice if scraping the road with a grader is gradually moving the road one way or the other.
no one would ever suggest putting a monument in the middle of any road around here. We'd know he was a flatlander for sure.
This is always a topic of great curiosity for me and I have worked with surveyors who have differing opinions on this. Why, when you have a return of layout 200+ years old that describe the c/l of a row with straight line bearings and distances and a width, do you feel justified adding curves?
