Then in the next couple of days, we e-mailed the surveyor"When did you come to do the measurement?On which day(s)?How long did it take for you to do the field work?How many of your people came?Do you use any equipment at all?According to your logic,"this does not alter the size of your lot." , you could have moved my lot to Boston or anywhere else as long as the size the same, in such ridiculous case, should we accept it?" No response.Three more days later, we got his e-mail only said "it is my professional opinion that the stakes show the correct?ÿ location of your deeded property lines." without any explanation.
Like the police officer said; you will need to bring a civil case.
If this was in Washington State, I would advise you to speak to the board of registration for engineers and land surveyors, first. But I don't know if they work that way in Massachusetts.
My best advice would be to hire a good title attorney; ?ÿjust be ready to get your wallet out...
It depends.
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It is unfortunate that you seem to be having some communication issues with your surveyor.
I would suggest you move past email and have a face to face...take it from there.
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To answer a few of your questions:
yes, setting up a survey station at a random location and sighting past a fence, and downslope is possible. Depending on the equipment, it is even possible to go around buildings and survey points not visible from the object in your front yard.
95 percent of surveyors do quality professional work, but often fail when it comes to client communication and coordination. Often I would perform work without communicating with the land owner, as I would wrap up another job in the area and had a few hours left at the end of the day.
Although your security footage only shows the survey crew on your property for a few hours, it doesn't show the research, calculation and drafting done in the office to prepare and finalize the job.?ÿ
If I was you, I would scheduale a meeting with the surveyor at his office so he can inform you and clarify his methods and determinations.
Best of luck,
Justin
Thanks for all of your answers!
From beginning,it was hard to get real person answer when calling their phone.?ÿ
9/26/2016 There was a review for this surveyor:Very poor customer service, voice mails, emails go unanswered. Their quote is very high, unwilling to discuss their plan ( even though they have 2 previous surveys of my land on file)
Another consideration is that he probably did quite a bit of work throughout the area to do the survey for the people across the street and may have had enough information to complete the work at your site with minor field time required.
my heartfelt advice is to wait until your surveyor completes and delivers the plat or documentation and report. Talking about a survey of property lines, especially contentious issues, over the phone and email does not do justice to the facts that are disclosed on the documentation. Surveying is usually much better understood when all parties can refer to a graphic document which explains the results of a survey.?ÿ
many years ago, after spending a lot of time explaining to landowners what I do before, during and after my presence on the site - which is the only part of the job that I am being viewed in action by the landowner and is often the smallest fraction of the project - I put into my standard contract the language that says in essence: the client agrees to be billed for time spent preparing for, and post-processing data obtained while on site, and have not been questioned since. I would be surprised if your surveyor did not address all the very important aspects of surveying done off-site in your signed contract.?ÿ
Good luck! your surveyor, very likely, has your best interest in mind - and you will be fully informed.?ÿ If you NEIGHBOR is infringing on your civil rights, then you may wish to call the police -?ÿ
It sounds like the surveyor used one of two kinds of equipment.?ÿ If he used a robotic total station, it can be set anywhere with good visibility and will follow a reflector prism on a pole, with a motor moving its pointing as needed, and continuously measuring the reflector's position.?ÿ This method needs line of sight to all points measured.
The other way uses GPS receivers that communicate with each other.?ÿ A base station GPS receiver sits anywhere within radio range of a rover GPS receiver on a pole and they do not need sight lines to measure their relative positions.?ÿ Their relative distances and bearings will be much more accurate than their absolute position in the world. ?ÿ In some cases a network of more distant receivers can be used instead of the nearby base, but it sounds like if GPS was used here it had a local base set up.
Does your security camera let you figure out which kind of equipment was used here?
As mentioned, if that surveyor previously worked across the street, he probably had information in his files that let him do your job with fewer new measurements.?ÿ Nevertheless, to do a good job he should have searched for existing monuments and if he found discrepancies he should have analyzed the situation, and weighed all the evidence to come to a reasoned resolution.?ÿ If he merely measured plat distances from monuments across the street to set new pins, and did not analyze the existing survey and monuments of the feuding neighbor, he didn't do the full job in my opinion.?ÿ When two conscientious?ÿ surveyors disagree by a significant amount, they are supposed to consult each other to understand the differences.
It is common to find some amount of disagreement between plats and measurements on the ground.?ÿ Measurements aren't perfect.?ÿ Older subdivisions tend to have more discrepancies.?ÿ If you go from one subdivision into the next, chances are even higher that things won't line up perfectly.
So you have two recent surveys on a small lot which disagree by one foot. This is not unheard of, particularly in older areas but your Surveyor should be explaining the source of the conflict to you. One typical possibility is the Surveyors disagree on what controls the block especially if the only thing available is curb splits. The conflict may raise the possibility of objective uncertainty which you and your neighbor can resolve by agreement.
I have no idea if the survey was done correctly having not seen it but not responding to reasonable client questions is a problem.
my heartfelt advice is to wait until your surveyor completes and delivers the plat or documentation and report. Talking about a survey of property lines, especially contentious issues, over the phone and email does not do justice to the facts that are disclosed on the documentation. Surveying is usually much better understood when all parties can refer to a graphic document which explains the results of a survey.?ÿ
many years ago, after spending a lot of time explaining to landowners what I do before, during and after my presence on the site - which is the only part of the job that I am being viewed in action by the landowner and is often the smallest fraction of the project - I put into my standard contract the language that says in essence: the client agrees to be billed for time spent preparing for, and post-processing data obtained while on site, and have not been questioned since. I would be surprised if your surveyor did not address all the very important aspects of surveying done off-site in your signed contract.?ÿ
Good luck! your surveyor, very likely, has your best interest in mind - and you will be fully informed.?ÿ If you NEIGHBOR is infringing on your civil rights, then you may wish to call the police -?ÿ
The contract said the plat or documentation and report will not be released before the invoice being paid in full. But the surveyor already sent us a stamped plat by e-mail, from which we asked so many questions, didn't get response more than "it is my professional opinion that the stakes show the correct?ÿ location of your deeded property lines." The invoice has arrived, also by e-mail. It said "They project has been completed. The bill is due upon receipt."
It sounds like the surveyor used one of two kinds of equipment.?ÿ If he used a robotic total station, it can be set anywhere with good visibility and will follow a reflector prism on a pole, with a motor moving its pointing as needed, and continuously measuring the reflector's position.?ÿ This method needs line of sight to all points measured.
The other way uses GPS receivers that communicate with each other.?ÿ A base station GPS receiver sits anywhere within radio range of a rover GPS receiver on a pole and they do not need sight lines to measure their relative positions.?ÿ Their relative distances and bearings will be much more accurate than their absolute position in the world. ?ÿ In some cases a network of more distant receivers can be used instead of the nearby base, but it sounds like if GPS was used here it had a local base set up.
Does your security camera let you figure out which kind of equipment was used here?
As mentioned, if that surveyor previously worked across the street, he probably had information in his files that let him do your job with fewer new measurements.?ÿ Nevertheless, to do a good job he should have searched for existing monuments and if he found discrepancies he should have analyzed the situation, and weighed all the evidence to come to a reasoned resolution.?ÿ If he merely measured plat distances from monuments across the street to set new pins, and did not analyze the existing survey and monuments of the feuding neighbor, he didn't do the full job in my opinion.?ÿ When two conscientious?ÿ surveyors disagree by a significant amount, they are supposed to consult each other to understand the differences.
It is common to find some amount of disagreement between plats and measurements on the ground.?ÿ Measurements aren't perfect.?ÿ Older subdivisions tend to have more discrepancies.?ÿ If you go from one subdivision into the next, chances are even higher that things won't line up perfectly.
We can not know?ÿwhich kind of equipment was used here even if we saw with eyes. That was why we asked but didn't get answer.
In the stamped plan this surveyor just produced, we found that one he indicated as "FOUND REBAR"across the street, is actually underneath accumulated snow, which had been there before Dec 14 (the date they were here). There has been no significant snow fallen after Dec 14. How could he find that?ÿ "FOUND REBAR" and use it as monument without removing the thick snow there?
He used #(disputing side)'s marks as monument, those rods had been moved a couple of inches toward our side by the driveway paving workers of #(disputing side)'s
So you have two recent surveys on a small lot which disagree by one foot. This is not unheard of, particularly in older areas but your Surveyor should be explaining the source of the conflict to you. One typical possibility is the Surveyors disagree on what controls the block especially if the only thing available is curb splits. The conflict may raise the possibility of objective uncertainty which you and your neighbor can resolve by agreement.
I have no idea if the survey was done correctly having not seen it but not responding to reasonable client questions is a problem.
The one foot difference is just at feuding side.On the left side our surveyor set the marks beyond an old fence (which was there over 40 years, supposed outside our borderline 0.5') by over 2'.The rear side (down slope)?ÿhe put wooden rod far away from the existed fence, and the line between 2 pipe rods our neighbor who previously lived there put according to many times of survey as border marks.?ÿ?ÿ
I checked the feuding neighbor's plat from town office and found that all numbers on that plat is fully consistent with?ÿthe document #(X,plan of land in Belmont city) from Middlesex Registry of Deed,Cambridge,Massachusetts which shows that every lots are sealed without any space between. Now this survey produced a space of 100 sf.
I am just thinking out loud here about land value.
Let's say one acre is worth $100,000.?ÿ There are 43,560 square feet in one acre so that land would be worth about $2.29 per square foot.
So for my hypothetical 1.0?ñ acre example, 100 square feet of the lot would be worth about $230.
I realize that there is a feud involved here.
I am just offering some perspective from a different point of view from all the way over here in Indiana.
Carry on.
There is only one lot line, what you have are two different opinions of where the lot line is located. Either one or the other opinion is correct or neither is correct. This should be explained, it??s not rocket science.
You also have a conflict on the left side, recent survey apparently rejects the old fence and two old pipes maybe relied upon by the neighbor. Maybe you aren??t concerned about this although your other neighbor may be concerned about it.
I am just thinking out loud here about land value.
Let's say one acre is worth $100,000.?ÿ There are 43,560 square feet in one acre so that land would be worth about $2.29 per square foot.
So for my hypothetical 1.0?ñ acre example, 100 square feet of the lot would be worth about $230.
I realize that there is a feud involved here.
I am just offering some perspective from a different point of view from all the way over here in Indiana.
Carry on.
That depend on what kind of land you are talking about. My total lot is less than 5k square feet. The feuding neighbor's is even smaller.
There is only one lot line, what you have are two different opinions of where the lot line is located. Either one or the other opinion is correct or neither is correct. This should be explained, it??s not rocket science.
You also have a conflict on the left side, recent survey apparently rejects the old fence and two old pipes maybe relied upon by the neighbor. Maybe you aren??t concerned about this although your other neighbor may be concerned about it.
"You also have a conflict on the left side, recent survey apparently rejects the old fence" That means we are going to lose that part of land because of the easement.?ÿ
"two old pipes maybe relied upon by the neighbor. Maybe you aren??t concerned about this although your other neighbor may be concerned about it."Now a house builder is planning two units there. We attended the hearing. The builder didn't stake out the borderline there. We pointed out that. But the town office suggested us to do our own land surveyor to make sure the builder will not build anything into our lot.
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In the stamped plan this surveyor just produced, we found that one he indicated as "FOUND REBAR"across the street, is actually underneath accumulated snow, which had been there before Dec 14 (the date they were here). There has been no significant snow fallen after Dec 14. How could he find that?ÿ "FOUND REBAR" and use it as monument without removing the thick snow there?
He probably used the measured location of the "FOUND REBAR" from when he did the work for your neighbor last year.?ÿ He did not need to dig it up out of the snow because he already had a recent measurement of its location.
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Thanks for all your professional,wisdom reply/comments.
The surveyor only used previous surveyor's marks as monuments, rather than looking for the city monuments recorded by Deed Registration.If these marks were incorrect,or moved by somebody, then the results will be questionable. Is it so?
Thanks for all your professional,wisdom reply/comments.
The surveyor only used previous surveyor's marks as monuments, rather than looking for the city monuments recorded by Deed Registration.If these marks were incorrect,or moved by somebody, then the results will be questionable. Is it so?
I'm not sure that we can say your surveyor "only used previous surveyor's marks" at this time.?ÿ The only monuments that might have been set by the city would be the street layout bounds, which would only indicate the sidelines of the street, not the individual lot owners' lines.?ÿ That is, if such bounds were set.?ÿ I have worked on a number of surveys in this area (Boston Metrowest) where road layout bounds were not set.?ÿ Believe it or not, sometimes (rarely, thank the stars) the road layout is referenced off of building corners, or retaining walls & stairs at the sidewalk.?ÿ?ÿ In Boston itself, a lot of the street layout plans date to the middle 1800's and reference nothing but building corners, and many of those buildings are gone now.
Ultimately, all surveys to recover existing lot lines will have to depend upon past surveyor's marks and monuments.?ÿ The key to our work is in deciding which marks to rely upon, and how to interpret the document records of past surveys against the measurements we take on these marks today.
All I can say about your situation is that your surveyor should be able to give you a better explanation as to how he determined your lot lines, and why it is different from what your neighbor's surveyor staked out.?ÿ "My professional opinion" is kind of a weak answer when a landowner is struggling with an issue like this.
You might wish to call your surveyor's attention to 250 CMR (Code of Massachusetts Regulations) Section 5.02(h),
Brad Ott has a point.?ÿ Sometimes the discrepancy is worth less than the money it might take to repair it.?ÿ A good surveyor should be able to communicate better with you and be able to defend his location in a much more clear manner.?ÿ Regardless, you need to ask yourself if fighting the difference is worth it, and could you come to some kind of compromise with your neighbor.?ÿ It sounds like the fence you built is pretty close to being the difference between the two surveys if I am reading this right.
If you can come to terms with this issue and your neighbor, you may remain cordial with each other, if you fight it, you will have an "enemy" living right next door for who-knows-how long.
I know I am not answering any of your questions, and I apologize for that.?ÿ But it would be hard for anyone on here to evaluate exactly what is right and what is wrong from a post on the internet.?ÿ Finding a good surveyor from the beginning is one of the best things you could.