FrancisH, post: 396860, member: 10211 wrote: honestly, that system lends itself to land grabbing activities. what if your adjoining lot is too vast and owner rarely checks on one of his faraway corner. his neighbor could move it a little bit at a time. 1 ft every few months. since everyone relies on actual monuments as being legal boundaries then if the line in question is several hundred feet long, just imagine area lost if one corner is moved 1 foot every few months.
and if the aggrieved owner gets one of you as his surveyor to check, you will report that that's the way it is.
In my experience a prudent surveyor can tell if a monument has been moved.
For example a few months ago I was hired by a fellow who wanted one of his lines marked because of a disagreement with the neighbor. The client's property and the neighbor's property had been surveyed by my mentor some 20 years ago. The specific line in question called for a rod at one end and a stone at the other. There was a wooden fence along said line built about 20 years ago. The fence was 1.5' on the neighbor's property at the rod and right against the stone at the stone 1100' away from rod.
Stone hit distance with in a couple of tenths for distance from rod. After locating the other 6 corners of the clients property I determined that the stone had been moved and told my client. He asked how can you tell the stone had been moved? I said because the point I calculated for the stone as called for by my mentor some 20 years ago lies in a demple in the ground about 6"ÌÑ6" and 3" deep where the stone once resided be for "you" moved it.
His lack of argument furthet proved my point!!
You severly misunderstand the U.S. system if you think we hold everything found as "original" and disregard the entirety of the evidence.
Hell you've got it easy!!!
I wish to warn that guy not to do this. IF he wants to rely on my work, he does it at his own risk, and peril.
However, I do now wish to become the foundation of somebody else's willingness to to "Take from the table" without putting some back.
Nate, Nate, Nate, when a client paid you to do a survey, you do it 100% without thinking that your plat would benefit some other surveyor down the line.
You place on the plat your findings, no ifs, no buts, no "further investigation into local history". You give to your client your professional findings down to the color of the paint you used to mark your traverse stations.
Why? because he paid for it. So that if your client hires a construction crew later on, and they have an in-house surveyor, all that guy needs to do is look at your plat & get ALL the findings on local history that you made. It saves your client additional fees for the next surveyor to re-do the survey that you were paid to do in the first place.
All of your wishy-washy, maybe here or there statements are really there because you yourself are not sure of your work and you want to cover your backside from future litigation.
Francis, you are killin me, with comments like #197 above!!
Nate, wasn't it you or some other guy here that said boundary error become legal boundaries after a certain lapse in time? That scenario would never happen if actual ground markers conform with title description. Both are sacred and have equal weight in law.
You severly misunderstand the U.S. system if you think we hold everything found as "original" and disregard the entirety of the evidence.
Hell you've got it easy!!!
actually your example just proved that my example into land grabbing is occurring.
FrancisH, post: 396877, member: 10211 wrote: actually your example just proved that my example into land grabbing is occurring.
Let me know in 400 years what the Singapore Land Surveying Act of 1991 reads, then we can have a conversation of equal caliber.
FrancisH, post: 396873, member: 10211 wrote: Nate, Nate, Nate, when a client paid you to do a survey, you do it 100% without thinking that your plat would benefit some other surveyor down the line.
You place on the plat your findings, no ifs, no buts, no "further investigation into local history". You give to your client your professional findings down to the color of the paint you used to mark your traverse stations.
Why? because he paid for it. So that if your client hires a construction crew later on, and they have an in-house surveyor, all that guy needs to do is look at your plat & get ALL the findings on local history that you made. It saves your client additional fees for the next surveyor to re-do the survey that you were paid to do in the first place.All of your wishy-washy, maybe here or there statements are really there because you yourself are not sure of your work and you want to cover your backside from future litigation.
Sir, I believe you do not understand do many things regarding surveying in the US. Specifically regarding this post, while the plan of Nate's nature is not of the norm where I work, I believe he is simply making his footsteps highly visible for future surveyors. Here in the states where I practice, we understand what it is like to follow 200+ year old documents. I want as much information stored in the record regarding the retracements I perform, not only for my client today, put his successor in title 100+ years from now.
I find your perspective interesting and worth while, however, I fear that if you ever try to get licensed in any state in the union you will fail the exams miserably. You would pass the Fundementals exam no problem, for you think like a technician, not like a professional. The principals exam, as well as any state specific exam you would need to take would be far beyond your grasp of boundary law in our humble republic.
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The principals exam, as well as any state specific exam you would need to take would be far beyond your grasp of boundary law in our humble republic.
to put it in perspective, you and your fellow US surveyors all passed the regulatory exams right?
and yet your land recording system is in shambles.
need I say more?
Let me know in 400 years what the Singapore Land Surveying Act of 1991 reads, then we can have a conversation of equal caliber.
it took Singapore since independence in 1965 only 50 years (even much less) to reach cm level accuracy in our boundary surveys while your US has had 400 years to develop yet your boundary survey is in disarray. and I keep on saying, this is a country that developed the GPS system that was supposed to modernize measurements and positions determination to cm level.
now you want to compare US with Singapore & other asian system? good luck with that.
FrancisH, post: 396895, member: 10211 wrote: it took Singapore since independence in 1965 only 50 years (even much less) to reach cm level accuracy in our boundary surveys while your US has had 400 years to develop yet your boundary survey is in disarray. and I keep on saying, this is a country that developed the GPS system that was supposed to modernize measurements and positions determination to cm level.
now you want to compare US with Singapore & other asian system? good luck with that.
Francis,
You have been denigrating US surveyors through this entire thread. To critique our various systems of recording and honoring title is another thing all together. As others have said, we have a different title system to yours. Is it perfect? No. Is it inherently equitable? For the most part.
Not to be argumentative, but given the following situation, what would a Singapore surveyor do.....
A 200 acre piece of land is granted by lot and range in 1720. At the time of conveyance the four corners of the lot are clearly marked trees or stake and stones. Around 1800, the first actual occupant of this land begins to build stone walls along the 80 year old line between the clearly marked corners. I come along and find said stone wall still in place and recognized by all parties as the line. Problem is, there is a 20 ft bow in the middle of the 1000 ft line!! This bow is likely due to the corners not being intervisible, do you hold the two ends of the wall and draw a straight line, or do you accept the erroneous, acquiesced to boundary wall!? I am truly curious.
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FrancisH, post: 396895, member: 10211 wrote: it took Singapore since independence in 1965 only 50 years (even much less) to reach cm level accuracy in our boundary surveys while your US has had 400 years to develop yet your boundary survey is in disarray. and I keep on saying, this is a country that developed the GPS system that was supposed to modernize measurements and positions determination to cm level.
now you want to compare US with Singapore & other asian system? good luck with that.
Exactly a GOVERNMENT run system. Question any "private" surveyors in Singapore? Everything I see is GOV'T. ie: pay gov't $8000 for 12 acre survey to tell you what you own. And change it every time the gps gives you a 15cm difference in coords. BTW why have a protect the monuments act if they don't matter?
Paul D, post: 396898, member: 323 wrote: Francis,
You have been denigrating US surveyors through this entire thread. To critique our various systems of recording and honoring title is another thing all together. As others have said, we have a different title system to yours. Is it perfect? No. Is it inherently equitable? For the most part.
Not to be argumentative, but given the following situation, what would a Singapore surveyor do.....
A 200 acre piece of land is granted by lot and range in 1720. At the time of conveyance the four corners of the lot are clearly marked trees or stake and stones. Around 1800, the first actual occupant of this land begins to build stone walls along the 80 year old line between the clearly marked corners. I come along and find said stone wall still in place and recognized by all parties as the line. Problem is, there is a 20 ft bow in the middle of the 1000 ft line!! This bow is likely due to the corners not being intervisible, do you hold the two ends of the wall and draw a straight line, or do you accept the erroneous, acquiesced to boundary wall!? I am truly curious.
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He couldn't know his regulations only date to 1991.
Here's the five groups recognized by the "Indonesian Surveyor Association" (ISA)
öÕ Engineering surveyors
öÕ Photogrammetrist
öÕ GIS profession
öÕ Remote Sensing profession
öÕ Hydrographic profession
I see nothing above concerning any application of boundary law principals. Gentlemen we've been 'discussing' US boundary law with a friggin' button pusher.
Here's the five groups recognized by the "Indonesian Surveyor Association" (ISA)
öÕ Engineering surveyors
öÕ Photogrammetrist
öÕ GIS profession
öÕ Remote Sensing profession
öÕ Hydrographic professionI see nothing above concerning any application of boundary law principals. Gentlemen we've been 'discussing' US boundary law with a friggin' button pusher.
I believe you are not aware of ASEAN cross-border professional practices? I would suggest you read up on it before using any foul language to disguise your ignorance.
TW why have a protect the monuments act if they don't matter?
I think you are referring to another kind of monument.
You protect correct monuments. You don't protect a monument that was placed in its current position by mistake, blunder or moved by nature.
That's difference between US & here, you protect all monuments you find whether you know for sure or not if it was disturbed in any way.
Problem is, there is a 20 ft bow in the middle of the 1000 ft line!! This bow is likely due to the corners not being intervisible, do you hold the two ends of the wall and draw a straight line, or do you accept the erroneous, acquiesced to boundary wall!? I am truly curious.
the fact that you said the lot only has 4 corners then it means that original survey laid out 4 corners. so the deed also mentions only 4 corners.
do you find it difficult to analyze what's wrong? you have the wall removed & constructed in a straight line because the original survey called for 4 corner points not 5. surveyor made a survey for 4 corners, construction people erected a fence with 5 corners, so they did not do their job correctly. if the Egyptians were able to construct a pyramid 3000 years ago with a perfect square base then US fencers should be able to construct in a straight line 200 years ago,end of debate.
You miss the point. This stone wall was not built by a third party, it was built by the land owner intending to mark the line. What happens when the farmer then conveys the land "as the walls now stand"? Oh no, he's changed the deed to more accurately reflect the boundaries on the ground. ...
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Oh no, he's changed the deed to more accurately reflect the boundaries on the ground. ...
how can he change the deed when the deed itself calls for 4 corners on the lot?isn't that what I have been telling all along?the deed itself i a record of what was originally surveyed?the surveyor did not build the wall therefore he has nothing to do with its erroneous position.the wall should follow the deed or the 4 corners established by the surveyor.
it's like saying it was martha stewart's fault every time someone misread her recipe and creates a disaster dish.
According to Wiki, Singapore's area is 278 square miles or 719.1 square KM, my state of Oregon is 98,381 square miles or 255,026 square KM. That's just one of fifty. Think about it, Francis.
According to Wiki, Singapore's area is 278 square miles or 719.1 square KM, my state of Oregon is 98,381 square miles or 255,026 square KM. That's just one of fifty. Think about it, Francis.
so now we are making excuses? but paul you as a surveyor are not surveying the entire 255,000 sq km. you are surveying 1-10 acres at a time. so using your logic, surveyors in China and Russia are the worse and are allowed to make bigger errors because their country is larger?
FrancisH, post: 396906, member: 10211 wrote: I believe you are not aware of ASEAN cross-border professional practices? I would suggest you read up on it before using any foul language to disguise your ignorance.
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