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Four Corners

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mathteacher
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Things have changed over the years:


 
Posted : September 1, 2020 1:02 pm
WarrenWard
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This is a great topic for me, so here goes:

The four corners monument has not moved in position since it was first placed in 1875. It has been upgraded and refurbished several times. It is a fantastic story of how monuments control boundaries and maintain order, despite efforts from surveyors, politicians, and the public to change its position over the matter of precision. It is perfectly legally accurate. It is imprecisely positioned by a wide ranging degree depending on which instrument you use to measure and which datum.

Despite efforts to legally change the position of this monument a profoundly insignificant degree of a few hundred feet by the GLO, the states of new Mexico and Colorado, the US Congress, and the SCOTUS, the monument has not budged.

This should be our flagship motto for retracement, but alas, I've witnessed silly pin gardens in each of the four states this great specimen establishes.

?ÿ


 
Posted : September 2, 2020 6:00 am
mathteacher
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@warrenward

Yes, @andy-nold got me interested in polyconic projections with his adventures in west Texas. Searching for USGS plane coordinates led me to USC&GS publication 219, Triangulation in New Mexico. It's available here https://library.noaa.gov/Collections/Digital-Collections/USCGS-Special-Pubs ?ÿ and as a free Google ebook. I thought the picture was pretty cool compared to the monument in place today.

Some pages relevant to Four Corners are:

Item?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ Book Page?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿPDF Page

Picture?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿafter p. 4?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ 12

Geog. Coords.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ 58?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ 67

Description & Plane Coordinates?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ 206?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ 215

Map?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ 287?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ 300

NGS has an extensive write-up of the situation you mentioned on their website, I think.


 
Posted : September 2, 2020 7:24 am
lurker
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Interestingly it appears the inscription reads U.S.G.& C. Survey instead of U.S.C.& G. Survey. Now if they got the inscription wrong, how did they get the corner in the right place?


 
Posted : September 2, 2020 8:53 am
mathteacher
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@lurker

It may just be bad penmanship.


 
Posted : September 2, 2020 10:44 am

mike-marks
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Been there done that.?ÿ It's on Indian Land and I was slightly miffed they charge $5.00/person to view it.


 
Posted : September 2, 2020 11:30 am
mathteacher
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@mike-marks

Currently closed because of covid. For $5.00, I would want to sit in that old truck for a few minutes.

When our dog groomer reopened after six-week state-mandated covid shutdown, she put up a sign saying that prices were immediately raised by 15%. Only way she could make up the lost revenue.

Maybe we should go now and sneak in.


 
Posted : September 2, 2020 12:40 pm
RichardLHardison
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That's a lot fancier than I was out there the summer of '70.


 
Posted : September 2, 2020 5:53 pm
base9geodesy
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@lurker - If you look at the picture in the original publication (Special Publication 219) you get a better view of "G."?ÿ VERY important to note that the monument is that which has been perpetuated by USGLO/BLM and was not set by USC&GS.?ÿ They occupied the existing monument (GLO no 1) to tie the station into the horizontal datum.


 
Posted : September 3, 2020 10:05 am
john-nolton
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@mathteacher?ÿ Did you take the original picture that got put into SP 219?

?ÿ

JOHN NOLTON


 
Posted : September 3, 2020 4:33 pm

mathteacher
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@john-nolton

No, that was a bit before my time.?ÿ


 
Posted : September 3, 2020 5:16 pm
spmpls
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Posted by: @richardlhardison

That's a lot fancier than I was out there the summer of '70.

We were there as a family in June of 1967. Of course, the goal is to have a picture taken with a limb in each state. It was blazing hot that day (I was 8 years old). That plaque was so hot I think the palms of me and my brother's hands were permanently branded. I have never been back even though I have been by there several times.


 
Posted : September 3, 2020 7:15 pm
holy-cow
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I cannot swear to it one way or the other but I may have been there in 1956.?ÿ If so, I have no memory of it as I was not yet three years old.?ÿ ?ÿWe were journeying from Pueblo, Colorado to Phoenix, Arizona at the time.?ÿ I know the return trip passed through New Mexico and Oklahoma, so it had to be on the way out.

Much like the trip I allegedly took to the Minneapolis/St. Paul area when I was two years old.?ÿ My parents told me I was there but you couldn't prove it by me.


 
Posted : September 3, 2020 7:30 pm
john-nolton
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@mathteacher?ÿ?ÿ"Maybe we should go now and sneak in"?ÿ ?ÿ YES, YES, YES

We sure could improve on NGS station description.?ÿIts a piece of crap.?ÿJust look at the station recovery for 1962, 1968 and 2000.

No mention of the reference marks. In 2000 not much is said about what the monument looked like or anything else. I know for a fact that some of the reference marks were destroyed back in ~2010; before base9geodesy went there to do a short skit on "How the States got their shape". Never could understand why?ÿHE?ÿdid not write a new description since he was on travel from the Govt.(a waste of Tax payers money).

Four Corners = GLO STA 1?ÿ ,?ÿ PID G00497

?ÿ

JOHN NOLTON


 
Posted : September 3, 2020 10:01 pm
jitterboogie
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I went there in College, on the way to the great Grand Canyon Roadtrip of 1993, and again in 2016.?ÿ The upgraded polished granite monoliths and new vending areas, railings ramps, and just all of it seemed a bit cheeky and even gawdy from my first trip recollections.?ÿ The Navajo vendors then,?ÿ seemed more genuine and interesting, the added space makes it seem like a calliope and some cotton candy and a few elephants would round it out now.

Still a very cool place, but has gone over the edge IMHO. Things change.....


 
Posted : September 3, 2020 10:31 pm

mathteacher
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@john-nolton

The NGS map finder shows this satellite photo:

and this map:

No mark is identified. Maybe all the Garmins pushed the Trimbles out.


 
Posted : September 4, 2020 7:29 am
MarkSilver
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Hijacking this 4-Corners thread for a 3-Corners thread:

If Four Corners leaves you feeling a little too touristy, come on north up the line to 3 Corners (Utah - Wyoming - Colorado)!

This point even comes with larger position 'issue' than 4 Corners.

The sign's printed location (assumed NAD27) is:

?ÿ41 00 42.616 N 109 02 42.158 W nad27
?ÿ
Which converts to NAD83:
?ÿ
?ÿ41 0 42.483991 -109 2 44.612175 NAD83
?ÿ
The datasheet:
?ÿ
 41 0 2.48859 109 3 0.09362 HEIGHT 2562.7m (NAD83 2010.0 GEOID18)
?ÿ
Inversing from the sign to the datasheet:
?ÿ
?ÿ1,285.65 meters (4,218.0 sFt) N 16 20 27 E
?ÿ
So 1.3 KM really is very close by our local standards ... this is Daggett County UT, Sweatwater WY,?ÿ Moffit CO.
?ÿ
For background, in 1977 I was employed on a BLM crew and one of our first tasks of the season was to bring the sign down to Vernal, sand and paint it, fill the routed letters and then put it back in place. This was the previous sign and that sign already had the board with the location cut out and replaced with a new board with a new location. Evidently the sign we serviced was replaced in 1999.
?ÿ
The entire corner is located on private land, however it is accessible to the public by sedan. The road is always exceptionally rough, even by local standards. The last 2-miles takes me over 20-minutes. I was up three weeks ago and shot the corner with the Utah VRS (TURN) matching the published horizontal value within a few mm.?ÿ
?ÿ
I think the lesson here is to not include a position on signs like this one. There is no nearby leveled control and the GEOID has changed significantly over the past 30 years so the elevation ends up being variable. Visitors don't really care about the position as evidenced by a 4,200 bust that has been ignored for 21 years (or longer.)
?ÿ
You have my personal guarantee that 3 Corners will not feel like a circus or touristy. I don't think two unaffiliated groups of visitors has ever reached it on the same day, let alone at the same time.

 
Posted : September 4, 2020 9:31 am
mathteacher
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@mark-silver

Here's Alabama, Tennessee, and Georgia.

http://chattanoogaradiotv.com/general/how-to-stand-in-tennessee-georgia-and-alabama-at-the-same-time/

?ÿ

NC, GA, and SC also have a marker, an Ellicott's Rock originally?ÿ

https://highpointers.org/wp-content/uploads/tripoints/pages/3ptGA-NC-SC.html

I have no plans to visit either site.

?ÿ


 
Posted : September 4, 2020 9:57 am
jaro
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@mark-silver?ÿ When this corner was originally set in 1879, what Lat Long were they attempting or instructed to mark?


 
Posted : September 4, 2020 9:58 am
loyal
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@jaro

It gets a little complicated!

However, the "statutory" description is 41?ø North Latitude & "25?ø West from Washington."

The 1879 survey commenced @ the "Four Corners Monument," and was run "NORTH" (numerous errors along the way), 276 miles 51.66 chains to the Wyoming Line (according to the 1879 survey).

There is quite a bit of information available concerning this "line," some of it in USGS Professional Paper 909.

Loyal?ÿ


 
Posted : September 4, 2020 10:13 am

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