FEMA

> I have two questions re: FEMA
> 1) My client has asked for an elevation certificate so he can eliminate the need for flood insurance. The FIRM shows that his home is not in Zone A, it is clearly in Zone X. The lender has told him that he must get an elevation certificate in order to be considered to be relieved of the requirement of flood insurance.
> The small brook watercourse that does flood, does not have a BFE established.
> I believe a LOMA is not appropriate because his home is not within Zone A, according to the FIRM.
>
> My question is: should he take his case directly to FEMA, or should I provide him with an elevation certificate that states the elevation of the watercourse and the elevation of his home?
> Does the lender have the legal authority to determine the probability of flooding? based on my elevation certification?
> 2) How does one become a CFPM?
>
> Thanks,
> Jim

Question 1:
I suggest making an Annotated FIRMette showing the building locations, etc and presenting that to the bank's determination company and ask for a re-determination.

Question 2:
AFPM Certified Floodplain Manager

I would fill out the certificate, but where it asked for the BFE put N/A and then explain yourself in the comments section.
More than likely the lender's agent does not know what they are talking about.

I would make a firmette and illustrate the location of his property on it. He will need to take that to his lender and fight it out with them. There is no point in running levels and the other required field work just to provide a bogus EC. I had to do this for my brother-in-law to get his mortgage company off his back.

> I would make a firmette and illustrate the location of his property on it. He will need to take that to his lender and fight it out with them. There is no point in running levels and the other required field work just to provide a bogus EC. I had to do this for my brother-in-law to get his mortgage company off his back.

I have been down that road. The lender for my client kept insisting she HAD to get flood insurance because she was in a flood zone. I showed them a copy of the flood maps with none of her property in the flood zone. Not only was her home not in a flood zone not one square inch of her property was in a designated zone.

The mortgage company kept insisting that they had a survey that said the house was in a flood zone. That was of course a lie. All they had was a letter from a determination company in Texas.

After several weeks of frustrating calls with the bankers (mostly telling me they could not discuss the matter with me then telling the client while she sat in my office they couldn't discuss it with her either) they finally told her that they would get her the insurance at the highest possible premium and that her mortgage payments would be used to pay for the insurance rather than the mortgage.

I finally found out who the flood determination company was. Called them. They have a policy of doing a re-determination within one hour of a request. FOUR DAYS later, they still hadn't done anything. Finally, they got tired of hearing from me and indicated that they had done a redetermination. "But we can't tell you the results. We can only tell the bank."

I did manage to badger the girl into admitting that they had used an old barn down the road for the determination "because that was the cautious thing to do". And that "anything that is anywhere near a flood zone we automatically indicate is IN a designated zone so we can get more people paying into the system and to protect ourselves from liability".

Larry P

> "anything that is anywhere near a flood zone we automatically indicate is IN a designated zone so we can get more people paying into the system....".

Nice, you so rarely get people to openly admit to fraud these days

I would not run a loop either, just fill out all the other information and no doubt a firmette would help.

First, make sure you are using current maps, they are being continuously updated to new DFIRMS.

Zone X can be shaded or unshaded. If it's shaded, there is still flood risk although it should not be NFIP mandated by FEMA. However, remember it's the Bank issuing the loan - not FEMA. The bank can require from the borrower anything it wants - it can require the borrower to wear a monkey suit if it wants to. If you don't like their terms, find another lender.

Determining a BFE for an unstudied stream may be a challenge. In it's most simple solution, it can be done with the FEMA program Quick2.

Before I did anything I would contact the County Floodplain Manager and explain the situation. He may be able to help, but remember again the Bank will be the final authority. It's their money that's being lent.

CFM certification is from ASFPM. I encourage surveyors to pursue it.

I've actually recommended to people to look for a different bank in these kinds of situations. At least if they catch it early enough. It just seems that flood zone status is one of the last things underwriting looks at, so then its a big scramble.

As was the case for one I just did this morning. House built in 96, zone C. FEMA did another analysis in 2002, changed it to zone AE. Guy sold the house and my guy paid cash, so no EC (nor did the stupid buyer investigate zone he was in). Now he's refinancing and bank needs EC, and he needs flood insurance.

The house (BMF) is 3.5 ft below the established BFE, and that's not including the tie down requirements. Nobody is going to like the result. I'm just glad he paid me on site. They were planning on closing next week, but I doubt that will happen.

Had he done his homework, it likely would have killed the deal. Now he's screwed. These are the kinds where it sucks to explain that "...I'm just the messenger..."

Thanks for the opinions

Thanks to all who responded to my inquirey.

I contacted our state National Flood Insurance Program Coordinator, who provided some very good information.
There is such a thing as a LOMA-OAS (Out-As-Shown), the instructions for which can be found online.

Also, google earth has a layer named
National Flood Hazard Layer, which is the same as SFHA as shown on the standard FIRMs. Using Google allows one to approximate coordinates for establishing location and printing a good photograph of the structure in question, with the SFHZ overlaid.

And a special thanks to
Jennifer Gilbert, CFM
Floodplain Management Program Coordinator
National Flood Insurance Program State Coordinator
NH Office of Energy & Planning.

Wouldn't That Be Slander Of Title ?

Is the firm that put the property in the flood zone licensed?

I have another question, are the banks profiting by the sale of flood insurance?

Are they accepting the fees for uneccessary insurance then pocketing the money knowing there will never be a payout?

Paul in PA

Thanks for the opinions

So I take it that you have never created a FIRMette on FEMA's site? They have all of that and can be printed with the map information on the firmette.

Wouldn't That Be Slander Of Title ?

I suspect there may be a lender that has a financial interest in an insurance company that provides flood insurance.
I wonder if there is a simple way of checking that type of connection?
Any thoughts about this? from anyone?

FEMA overlay for Google Earth

Sounds like it could be handy for general information, although not what you would want to submit.

FEMA explanation and download links:
https://hazards.fema.gov/femaportal/wps/portal/NFHLWMSkmzdownload

Wouldn't That Be Slander Of Title ?

> I suspect there may be a lender that has a financial interest in an insurance company that provides flood insurance.
> I wonder if there is a simple way of checking that type of connection?
> Any thoughts about this? from anyone?

Part of the financial reform act is that lenders have very little input into the due diligence portion of a mortgage transaction. They are not allowed to make decisions regarding home inspections, surveys, flood zones, appraisals, etc. They are told to rely on whatever they are told without question, to avoid conflict of interest. Hence, when the flood zone determination company (from Texas) screws up, they don't care. It takes an act of god to get the bankers to change their minds. I've had at least 5 of these over the last 2 years, and they will not accept anything I provide of proof that the flood zone determination is wrong. Your client has to ask for a "dispute resolution" through the flood zone determination company. And as mentioned above, often times the banker will not even confirm that it was the Texas company that made the determination. I told a client once to just cold call the Texas company and try to initiate the dispute resolution himself, which worked.

Wouldn't That Be Slander Of Title ?

Somewhere in a recent thread (perhaps not this one) someone mentioned a new FEMA Form. They now have a LOMA - Out as shown?

Have not seen these but if they did create such a form it might be because of the hell I raised over this case with my client.

The mortgage management company (MMC) (not the original lender as the loan had been sold many times) kept insisting over and over that I do a LOMA*. I kept explaining to them there was zero chance I was going to ask the client to spend $1,500 to correct a map that was already right. The map did not need amending. The folks in Texas just needed to do their job correctly.

I was really unhappy when the MMC told me that I didn't know what I was talking about and that "our surveyors have been out there and that house is in a flood zone".

That was a flat out lie. Nobody had been to the site but me and the client who lived in the house.

Larry P

*If I heard it once I heard it 50 times. Just do a LOMA.