@lukenz the 10K that I referenced was a fine for a PC that I worked with walking a wall and falling into the basement, getting hurt, not dieing.?ÿ I would imaging thata preventable workplace death would be in the millions but I don't want to find out by losing one of my guys or even having them get hurt.
Just refuse to do it and wait for them to fire you. They probably won't because they know you're right.
I did this on a project about 15 years ago-- contractor was installing a lift station, and in a hurry. The hole was around 18 feet deep and a couple feet wider at the top than it was at the bottom. They wanted me to go down there and I was like yeah no.
My employer at the time gave the field guys laminated cards that showed exactly how far holes had to be sloped for a few broad categories of soils, and these guys were about 50 feet short on this hole..
Anyway, it was so steep and deep the contractor couldn't even get a ladder into it. The foreman climbed inside a trackho bucket and the operator lowered him to the bottom where he got out and did some work.
The hole didn't cave in on him that time but it's still probably the most blatantly stupid thing I've seen a construction worker do. I also didn't get a hint of grief from anyone for refusing to be momentarily suicidal.
@norman-oklahoma the bottom line is that if it's not safe, I have no problem walking away.?ÿ I am in the office managing the department and office staff while my crews are in the field visiting these sites.?ÿ The contractors are told that if the foundation is notbackfilled or if the hole conditions are not safe, we will leave the site and not return until they have addressed the issue to my satisfaction.
My crews are told that when they arrive at the site, if the conditions are not safe, they are to call the office and move on to the next job, no exceptions.?ÿ I then contact the contractor to tell themthatwe will not be back until it's safe and I almost always get push back from them but I stand my ground.
@dmyhill that's a federal standard, same is true with trench suring and confined space entry, all of those preventative measures kick in at 4'.
@dmyhill when it comes to the litigation costs, I'm sure you are more than correct on that.?ÿ My concern if safety first for my people, I want them going home alive and healthy every night.?ÿ I'm a stickler about safety, since I started my department, there has only been one injury, and that was a PC that twisted his ankle.
I don't want my guys doing something that I wouldn't do myself and tell them that if they have any doubts, call me.?ÿ We have 4 Leica total stations and two Leica Robots and I will not allow any one man crews for safety reasons alone.?ÿ Everybody in the field should have at least one other to watch their back incase something happens.
@thebionicman I've been in the game for 38 years and can only remember getting hurt once in my 12 or 15 years in the field, that was when the crew was walking out of the woods, I was in the back of the line carrying the gun on my shoulder (optical transit).?ÿ The RM was in front of me and let go of hairy briers when he got past then and one sprangback and hit me directly in the eye.?ÿ I spent 4 hours in an optimoligists chair as he picked them out of my eye ball one by one and had to wear a pirates patch for three weeks until my eye healed.
@norman-oklahoma I'm sure that most of us are insured incase something like that were to happen and the deductible would likely be less than $10K, but, in the end, you might as well close the shop because no other insurance company will touch you with a 10' pole.
@chris-bouffard The bottom line is like you said, you can??t ask one of your guys to do something you wouldn??t do yourself. If you recognize the danger and disregard it and someone gets hurt or worse yet, killed. That is the heaviest of burdens to carry and I??m not talking about financial penalties. It??s not an accident but negligence. ?ÿIf it??s that important to them, then they can sit down with you and work out a safe way to get it done. If they can??t or won??t, then it??s on you not to be a willing participant.?ÿ
@bstrand I hear what you are saying about the stupidity of people doing such wreckless things but you missunderstand my role and reasoning to posting this topic.?ÿ I run the Survey department for my company, this coming March it will be 7 years ago that I started the Survey department from scratch.?ÿ The CEO gives me full reign to run it as I see fit because I brought in some talent from past working realtions and took something from nothing and turned it into something that has allowed the company to grow from me being the 12th employee to our current state of employing almost 70 people (Engineering & Surveying combined).
I have six field crews who are paid well and I, as well as management above me value every employee as if they are family.?ÿ It's not that I turn my back on safety, I am the person reinforcing safety to them because I want every one of them to go home safe at the end of the day.?ÿ I constantly tell them to avoid unsafe situations and stress to them that they are never to walk foundation walls or go down into unsafe situations under any circumstances.?ÿ I don't care what the contractors have their people doing, I care about my people protecting themselves.?ÿ If something doesn't look or feel safe, they know to call the office and move on to their next job until I address the site issues with the contractors.
I can't tell you the number of times that I've been told by site supers that "I've been doing this the same way for 20, 30 or 40 years", when they speak those words, I have the same reply, that just means that you've been doing it wrong for all those years, safety comes first.
@williwaw it's not something that I'm willing to deal with personally or professionally.?ÿ When it comes to safety, I always have taken it seriously andmy crews really appreciate me having their 6's.?ÿ There are only two people above me in company management and one of them runs Engineering and is the COO.?ÿ He sometimes makes some risky decisions and I always push back on him, sometimes in shouting matches where I tell him to pound sand (in more field like terms) and to do it his self.?ÿ I win every time, he learns something and an hour or two later we are back to exchanging high fives and fist pumps when we walk past each other.
I have an administrative staff that takes the field work orders, gets my approval on pricing and know what to ask the clients, or, defer to me for what to ask.?ÿ When the clients give the ladies push back, these ladies are some tough cookies, they hold their ground and when the client won't take no for an answer, then I get involved and tell them how it's going to be.?ÿ The same ladies have no problem with standing up to the COO either. They and I built the department and our processes from scratch.?ÿ Seven years ago, they had no clue what Surveying was but they immursed themselves into following my instructions and explanations and now, at this point, are rock stars on the admin end.?ÿ I've trained them to write legal descriptions, understand bearings, check outgoing plans and more.?ÿ It's a beautiful arrangement to be involved in but we all put the safety of our people first, that's the key, and our people truly appreciate that.
@chris-bouffard I didn??t realize you were between the wall and the excavation. I thought it was just inside the excavated basement area.
... That being said there a lot of exceptions to the rules regarding residential construction vs commercial/industrial/government construction.
Those are actually violations of the rules and laws. Period. There isnt any exception to a safety plan or rule or law, except those willing to violate them to save time or money by risking someone else's life.
Not trying to beat you up, that's just the facts.
That is rough man, work is never supposed to be that way. Hopefully your trauma built in some good understanding And empathy (sounds like it) for anyone you see being endangered with crappy safety. I never saw anyone die but helped a few not die by saying something or even announcing stop work to chagrin of the site super, who thanked me afterwards when everyone calmed down.
Carry on!
@dmyhill when it comes to the litigation costs, I'm sure you are more than correct on that.?ÿ My concern if safety first for my people, I want them going home alive and healthy every night.?ÿ I'm a stickler about safety, since I started my department, there has only been one injury, and that was a PC that twisted his ankle.
I don't want my guys doing something that I wouldn't do myself and tell them that if they have any doubts, call me.?ÿ We have 4 Leica total stations and two Leica Robots and I will not allow any one man crews for safety reasons alone.?ÿ Everybody in the field should have at least one other to watch their back incase something happens.
I completely agree. The most important thing is to get everyone home safely. I was just responding to NZ that the fine from OSHA is just the start in many cases.?ÿ
My last boss was on-site when a worker not under his direction and working for another company made a fatal mistake. He became very much about safety, and instilled it in us. As I have moved into more leadership, I would rather have nothing done all day than have a worker get hurt. There is no amount of money worth the lives or health of my people.
@mvanhank222 Yeah, between the trench wall and foundation wall.
Someone needs to call OSHA on them.?ÿ It's not that I'm the tattle tale type (growing up if one of the 4 boys ratted on another, we all got the punishment) but some things are just too stupid let go on.?ÿ Once a couple of fines are handed out the group of them will change their ways.?ÿ They will bitch about it, but they will change.
??Stand your ground,? as said is right, but the implications run deeper.
As the first in the trench, you set a precedent, tacitly accepting the environment, and others may follow.
If you refuse, you will never know the lives you saved, and rest well on that.
Contractors are charged primarily with access to the work, and unsafe access ain??t access at all.
