Ethics Question:

> Would you bring this to her attention?

I would, myself. Her sale price needs to reflect the actual loss of value of her property. It seems to me that the role of the surveyor in that transaction is not as a broker trying to assist the buyer, but as an objective third party. You aren't breaching some confidence of the buyer, you're making sure that both parties know what they are getting into. Your duty flows from your special knowledge that they don't possess, presumably.

I agree with Kent. She needs to know the implications of reducing her lot size. She still might do it or she might not. Probably need to inform your client also.

Sorry to disagree. You were hired to subdivide & consolidate adjacent properties.
You were not hired as a land broker or lawyer. If the price of the land goes up because of your advise when she really has no intention for future development then you just caused trouble for your client.

Let me ask you this question, did you advise the person who hired you that his land value will be going up or down because of the additional purchase? If not then why do you feel you have to advise the other side?

Money grows on trees, rich widow woman whowho does not. Any way to split the two properties evenly so that they both are in code? That would be a win-win and double win for you.

Seems it would be best to ask your client to inform the seller of this situation. That way it does not make the buyer out to look like he is trying to slip something by the seller, and is less likely to create a problem.

Good answer Gordon.

I would inform her. Just as I would if she was selling all of her road access or limiting herself some other way. But I like Gordon's answer. Then if she does change things up it's not on you.

A Surveyor Has An Obligation Beyond The Client

Is this a strict acreage requirement or increased area to allow coverage percentage to conform?

At a minimum you must clearly explain to the neighbor her current areas etc. and future areas. You do not advise her, just give her the facts.

The best advice in any survey question, "Seek wise legal counsel."

Paul in PA

Last time I checked, the main reason we were licensed was to protect the public. I believe the answer is obvious.

A reputation for dishonesty can stem from withholding information as well as from putting forth false information. A surveyor with that kind of reputation is going to attract certain clients that I have no desire to associate with. "hire so and so, he'll put the line where you tell him to"

To retain a reputation of neutrality and honesty one must sometimes reveal information that is percieved as detrimental to the clients' interest. This is tough to do sometimes, but that's why you get money up front and are paid the big bucks.

What will the parties be telling all their friends after this is discovered, if you don't reveal it beforehand? What will they say if you do? How far will that spread, and how will it affect what the public thinks about the profession (rather than just yourself)?

This is a good ethical question. Ethical questions are tough and not controlled by codes, laws, etc.. In fact I may use this in class; thanks for posting it.

I'm with Gordon and Shawn on this. The burden for disclosure rests with your client. Your duty is to your client. I would encourage him to do the right thing ethically but leave it at that. Surely in this whole process the sellers attorney will review the situation. It's the attorneys job to defend his clients interests including this issue.

Ditto.

Within the past two weeks, I have had to explain to two people the possible ramifications of a division. I make it clear that I am not advising them for or against, just that I want them to have all of the information so that they can make a fully informed decision.

Most absolutely . . .

I would NOT tell her about the implications... as YOU see them.

BUT I most certainly would tell her to check with the planning department or whomever, to ascertain how the 1/4 acre might affect her property. This way, you're out of the loop and she has the opportunity(if she wishes), to check it out.

Imagine that she's aware of this situation, and you raise this red flag for her to further consider the situation . . . then she balks on the sale, in part because of YOUR concern.

I wouldn't want to be the cause of an aborted sale and explain to my client that I was the cause.

I had to brush up on the codes and discovered if she sells this 1/4 acre to my client her property will actually lose enough square footage that it could hinder future improvements to her property. It will not violate any codes, but it will make her property too small to meet the same requirements my client is trying to satisfy.

Based on your quote, there are a lot of assumptions & reasons that are not in any way associated with land surveying. You are entering into construction codes. Last time I checked construction is altogether another profession.

It is assumed neither your client or the neighbor are the professionals. Because it is assumed you are a professional, you were hired to perform a professional service. Professionalism is associated with going beyond meeting just the basic requirements of a "business" contract. Professionalism not only yields to ethics and morals, but pursues them. Business is concerned only with the profits. Are you a professional or businessman? Answer that question and you will know what to do.

Marc Anderson: regarding "Your duty is to your client."
In our state, the duty is "to safeguard life, health and property and to promote the public welfare."

> Based on your quote, there are a lot of assumptions & reasons that are not in any way associated with land surveying.

In the U.S. the practice of land surveying is defined statutorily by each individual state. For example in Maryland site planning as well as the coordination of other professions involved in site design is considered land surveying. In addition to determining boundaries and mapping surface & subsurface features we are generally expected to be land use experts as well.

Most absolutely . . .

What if the land values were 1000x times what you are talking about and what you told someone, who isn't your client, your opinion and it cratered the sale? You would have some very p!ssed off clients.

> Based on your quote, there are a lot of assumptions & reasons that are not in any way associated with land surveying. You are entering into construction codes. Last time I checked construction is altogether another profession.

Gina,

Alan and James have replied succintly to your post concerning this question in the U.S.

The question as stated did not in any way endanger the public welfare. The action contemplated was perfectly legal. The only concern is what impact it could potentially have on the development plans of the adjoiner in the future.

I think it would be stretch in Illinois for Land Surveying to be considered Urban Planning. I know a number of planners who would object to that definition.

The action contemplated is legal. No mention was made that the new contemplated line would endanger the adjoiner with respect to zoning requirements or lot clearances. As a professional you have a duty to your client as long as his actions do not endanger the public. You have no way of knowing if the adjoiner would ever actually do anything further with their property. You're not charged with mind reading. I said I would encourage my client to disclose this as a good neighbor.

Some other authority, legal or regulatory, should be reviewing this activity as well.

This argument is just another version of whether protecting the public and working for the public are the same thing. Unless your client is a public agency, they're not.

Ethics Question: update

I received a phone call from the "wider-woman's" son..also her attorney. He would like copies of the survey so he can get the "papers drawn up."

I specifically asked him if his client (his Mother) was alright with the sale. He said, "Sure, it will be less to mow."

I asked about the disposition of the property when his Mother was no longer needing it. He said the trust would probably sell it.

"No plans of putting up a detached out-building, like the shop you're Mother's neighbor is building?", I also asked.

"Oh, God no", was his reply.

Okie-Dokie, we'll send the copies your way.

_________________________________

I thank everyone for their response. Everybody has replied with a valid point.

However, I personally do not feel I have the expertise to advise anyone, client or not, concerning the use or future use of their real property.

While local zoning, building codes and regulations are things with which I am familiar, I don't consider myself versed enough to advise anyone concerning the subject. The willful conveyance does not violate any existing codes and the survey is noted with the square footages of each parcel, before and after the "Lot Line Adjustment".

I chose to keep my mouth shut this time. And I will admit the conversation with the son makes me feel better about my decision.