Situation is-
- RFP for an ALTA Survey from a client, whom you have a past relationship with
- You deliver proposal a requested
- Client informs you that your fee is 10% above the surveyor who did the development
- Client asks you - "if I get you the DWG files from the original survey / developer / builder, will you lower your fee"?
1) Will you?
2) Will you not?
3) Is there an ethics issue to consider?
OK, you get Original developers file.
Now, you MIGHT not have to do any field work.
Now, it will look exactly like HIS numbers.
And, all will be good as the project moves along.
(With that set of manholes flowing uphill, but who cares?)
🙂
And, WHO is the patsy!!
N
No way.
I'm not sure about the ethics.
But strictly buisiness:
The as yet unseen .DWG files are highly unlikely to be of much help if you are going to do a proper job. Adjusting proposed features to as-built features is time consuming and prone to errors and blunders.
As I often tell clients, "If word gets around that I renegotiate proposals, then every client will expect it." If your price is too high, you lose the job. If your price is too low, you work for nothing. Live with it.
I would not even respond to the inquiry. I choose to work for people with integrity. And yes! They are out there.
> Situation is-
>
> - RFP for an ALTA Survey from a client, whom you have a past relationship with
> - You deliver proposal a requested
> - Client informs you that your fee is 10% above the surveyor who did the development
> - Client asks you - "if I get you the DWG files from the original survey / developer / builder, will you lower your fee"?
>
> 1) Will you?
> 2) Will you not?
> 3) Is there an ethics issue to consider?
Lowering your fee by 10% would be your decision. Depends how hungry you are and if you think they would help you. Certainly. they would help a little.
Re Ethics: As long as the client owns the DWG files, why would it be unethical for him to give you the files.
He Wants You To Lower Your Fee More Than 10%
I have worked from other surveyors and engineers drawings, but only with their permission. That is not to save me time or work but to ensure I have all the information available.
What the client may be expecting you to do is remove the other firms title block, then sign and seal it at a nominal price.
Where I inclined to continue with this client I would say, "I would meet the other firms price, not a dollar less, if the other firm gives me a letter releasing their information to me."
Sometimes the client is just more comfortable with a particular surveyor and very often other surveyors get tired of a particular client. It is all in the "devil" you know.
Paul in PA
My price just went up 10%.
:coffee:
He Wants You To Lower Your Fee More Than 10%
When your competition is asked to meet or beat your price, what do you want them to do? Start a reverse auction?
No.
If I have to use the developer's DWG it will be twice as much. Sorry other people's DWGs with 20,000 layers in there are more trouble than they are worth.
Possibly if I felt the DWG would be a major help to my profitability. I would be most concerned about a particularly difficult boundary for which the monuments may well have been disturbed or buried deep. Location of original utilities would help to confirm if ONECALL will get all of them located. An example, we have many water districts who do not participate in ONECALL. Doublechecking my plan against theirs would be somewhat time consuming, but, hopefully, lead to a more confident product. I would insist on having the DWG to study prior to any agreement to a lowered fee.
NO, I would not lower my fee. The ALTA would be from my own data and not relied upon others files. I don't know their procedures and wouldn't waste my time with their files.
It depends.
If i had the .dwg files that had value, then yes I would lower my fee..not by much but I would lower it.
I would also make sure that the original surveyor was paid, and that I had permission to use the files.
I would also get them from the surveyor and not the client.
>
> I would also make sure that the original surveyor was paid, and that I had permission to use the files.
>
> I would also get them from the surveyor and not the client.
If you got the DWG from the client or builder or whomever, then the surveyor really has nothing more to do with it. No one can control to whom a DWG or paper copy or whatever gets distributed to once they release it. Now as far as having responsibility or liability to whomever, well, that's very different.
Stephen
A lot of people consider it lazy to obtain anothers survey map and use for any purpose. That is somewhat borne out by the responses to this discussion.
I think it's lazy not to get a copy if one is obtainable. If you are supremely confident that you see everything that could possibly need to be seen on each and every survey that you undertake, then yes, I supppose it would be of no benefit to have another guy's survey. Since I personally fall short of that standard, when another surveyors opinions are readily available to peruse, then again, I think it's just plain lazy and foolish to not get a copy. It should probably be mentioned that you should be able to obtain a copy in this instance without the help of the potential client.
As to lowering your fee... well, I don't know. Hopefully you put a certain small percentage in there for him to beat you up on, you know, a little fat to painlessly trim off. Can really help to seal deals sometimes.
I will concede that the way you were approached on this feels a little bit sleazy, but broken down into its' constituent parts, no, I don't think that there is an ethical issue here.
Stephen
It is purely an ethics issue and easy to determine as such. How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot?? Would you consider it foul or fair for someone else to use prior knowledge of your proposal to "low bid" you out of the picture, because of the client's greed?? If ethics or morals or law will not trump greed, what will?? It's up to you to determine what you will do to skirt by such an issue.
Having prior data, record or not, is just more evidence to consider in the search for best evidence. It could reduce or add to my efforts required to complete the work properly. No way to know until I see and analyze it. Won't begin to do that without confirmation the prior was paid as agreed and had their permission to use it.
Bet you will find this IS convered by your State ethics codes. It sure is in both the states I am licensed in and several other states with which I am familiar. Some use ethics to GET AROUND the law and morals, some use ethics properly to justify the law and morals. Such should be expected when both ethical people and charletans make up the society.
OK, TP, you're right, I neglected to address the fact that you were given information about the other surveyor's bid.
In two of the states I am licensed in, that is not addressed. In the other two, it is, and further, BIDDING on jobs is not allowed. Proposing is, bidding is not. I've never completely understood the difference between a bid and a proposal, but bids are disallowed in some states. So, yes, I take that part back, there certainly could be an ethical issue here.
Stephen
It would seem to me that having someone else's electronic / digital drawings (furnished by whoever) would be more hindrance than anything; there'd just be too many variables & unknowns with it to have any confidence in building upon it.
Subsequently, what good would the dwg files have that the hard copy drawings wouldn't? Same goes with point files or other data, unless all underlying collection methodology was completely understood. Not to turn down work, esp with a solid client, but if the client's looking to save some $$ and go with convenience / rapid delivery, he should probably just hire the previous surveyor.
First, as an ethical issue. I would NOT use a DWG file, or any portion of that electronic file, as part of my ALTA drawing. (In the same way, I wouldn't copy and paste a "Notes" list or a "Symbols" table from another surveyors paper drawing and call it my own.)
So, if my fee was originally based on having a reference copy of the previous ALTA survey "in hand" before starting work, having the DWG file wouldn't help reduce either the field time or drafting time.
But, if my fee was originally based on starting the job from zero, and was then offered a DWG file and/or paper copy of a previous ALTA, I would figure that that probably could reduce the field time and drafting time enough to lower the fee, maybe up to 10%.
Let me get this straight. They're asking you to recieve previous work on the project, from another firm that has provided a proposal for the next stage of the project (or another stage or whatever), and to use that other firms work product to undercut their proposal?
Is it legal? I would want to see the contract for the previous work. If the computer file was part of the deliverable, then the potential client has a right to use it in this fashion. If not, they do not have that right.
Ethical? When considering this question one should ask how their own actions will affect others rather than themselves. How would this affect the surveying business in your state, the country, internationally? How would it affect surveyors business plans and relationships with clients? How would it affect quality of deliverables? When considering ethical it's really not about how it might affect your chances of getting the job or how you might be able to use the dwg. It's not about protecting turf either, or helping the other business owner or professional.
It's about a larger system of ensuring that clients are represented in the best manner possible to reduce the risk of harm to them and the public.
In this instance I think you have an ethical problem. If the deliverables are going to include proprietary data such as this, then partnerships should be built up front with other firms and standard operating procedures put in place to facilitate the sharing of data.
I would counter propose that you and the other firm might be able to work together to get the price trimmed down a little, and then again maybe not. But I would be willing to discuss it directly with the other firm. Otherwise, proposal stands as is.
I don't think anyone was suggesting that the DGW file be used as the second surveyors' work product. Only that it be provided as a source of information about the site, including another land surveyor's opinion as to the retracement of the property lines.
Obviously, without any question, using someone elses work product as your own is both illegal and unethical. I don't think anyone was alluding to that.
Stephen
