7 years ago I supplied the property lines for a highway project, 2 lanes to 4 lanes. Now the design is almost complete and I'm hired to make the taking plans for about 40 parcels. I'm subcontracted by a huge engineering firm who is contracted to Eastern Federal Lands Highway Division. They're doing this for the local VI DPW. So there's about a dozen engineers involved and one Surveyor (me). Some of the property lines on their design plans are not the same as what I gave them 7 years ago. I finally get a zoom meeting to discuss this as they all seem to think I'm wrong, nothing has changed. The head engineer-designer has the DGN file on the Zoom screen and suddenly I see it. I tell him to zoom in. There is a red line and a green line, looks like about a foot apart, both with?ÿ --PL--?ÿ linetypes. I read them all the riot act. "Who put that property line on your drawing? Was it a surveyor? Was he/she licensed in the Virgin Islands? If this doesn't end I'm done with this project". I re-sent them the file that I sent them 7 years ago and said "you check the entire project and get rid of any property lines that aren't exactly what's on my file". We'll see what happens.?ÿ
I had that issue as well with both the designers and the drafters who would make the "pretty drawings", they would either:
a) trace over my linework so they could apply there own linetype to it (not understanding that, with Auto desk anyway, one can change the linetype in the xref without affecting the actual xref), it all goes down to good training.
b) rather than xref my base drawing, copy it into a file that was in their project folder and then xref it. (I caught the newest drafter doing this and she told me "that's how I was told to do it", myself and one of the designers set her straight, but never did find out who told her that).
One of the older drafters would open a copy of the ROW base and copy out what he thought he needed. I only found out when one of the environmental analysts asked me about this spot where the road is way outside of the ROW, do we need to acquire or claim prescription? I looked at where he was talking about, there was an existing easement for the road, the drafter figured all he needed were the ROW lines, no easements or property lines were in his drawing.
Thats the kind of crap that goes on when the higher ups don't recognize that there needs to be more than just layer and block standards.
?ÿ
RANT OFF
they all seem to think I'm wrong, nothing has changed
Why am I wrong? Are you a licensed survey, with authority to make this call??ÿ?ÿ
Some who are blind, regardless of job title, do not wish to see.?ÿ If they admit they can see, they may be expected to solve problems they, themselves, have brought about out of ignorance.?ÿ Then they develop headaches, stress, demotions or terminations.
About 35 years ago I was doing strictly engineering work and was one of very few employees (1400 total) who had completed a university major in engineering and an even shorter list of those who had passed the PE exam.?ÿ I dealt with this crap every day.?ÿ A part of the problem was the paper shufflers had found ways to coerce the ultimate client (the U.S. ARMY) into handing over more money when things took two or more attempts to get the correct result.?ÿ My goal was always to get the job done correctly the first time.?ÿ A minute fraction of the dollars being wasted were MY TAX DOLLARS.
I have had many run-ins with engineers/designers regarding their impractical determination of new RW takes, etc. but the best I ever saw was this.
We were doing a levee improvement project, raising the crown (area of subsidence) and bolstering the waterside slopes. My office was to perform the staking and monitor earthwork volumes. A pre-construction meeting was held where a couple of young engineers unveiled there "pretty" plans. A crusty old construction engineer looked them over, grunting and mumbling throughout, then looked at the design engineers and said "It's obvious that neither of you have ever built a GD thing in your lives. This garbage isn't buildable with all these little sliver fills and crap." He looked at me and asked "Can you just give us new crown grades and keep track of the volumes (had already done all the pre-construction topo)? "Yes sir." "Okay we can throw these things in the round file then and we will just go out there and build it so those levees last another 50 years or more." The two engineers just slinked out of the room with their tails between their legs. Loved that crusty old guy. The project went off without a hitch.
We'll see what happens.?ÿ
I'll bet you get the contract along with a request for help revising the plans. Revisions provided by you are done, of course, at triple your normal fees. ?????ÿ
@spmpls?ÿ
Many times there is some AUTHORITY requiring the engineering plans.?ÿ Then the contractor ignores them and simply does exactly what they know needs to be done.?ÿ The AUTHORITY never knows the difference and is quite content.
In your example, the crotchedy old expert was crudely explaining how the world really works.
?ÿ
The AUTHORITY never knows the difference
Only if the inspectors are showered with gratuities. And we all know it happens..... ?????ÿ
@spmpls?ÿ
Depending on how recent that was, I've come to the conclusion that all these designers do is "let the machine tell them how it should look" and that's all they know.
Common sense, what's that? One of the last projects I worked on in AK was for a street though the City of Skagway, curb, gutter, sidewalks the whole nine yards. For those unfamiliar Skagway proper is flatter that a plate of water and high water table to boot, so drainage is the major issue, but not a super big problem, just an old system. The designers (contracted, not in house) were not changing the existing grades of the road significantly at all, so back of walk would be within 0.5' of the existing grade and pulled further from the ROW line also. I don't know what grade they were using from back of walk (most likely 6:1 or some super beautiful grade like that), but they had regrading going WAAAAAAAAAAY into peoples front yards. when we asked why so much and suggested that they pull that back because it was totally unnecessary they're response was "we thought you'd just get us 10' Temporary Construction Easements all along the road and that way the contractor could use it for staging as well". Our ROW chiefs response was "NOT WITH FEDERAL MONEY WE'RE NOT! We have absolutely no way to justify that cost to them."
@richard-germiller that's the kind of thing that gets me all fired up.?ÿ When I come across this stuff while doing my construction set up, I bring my original work into their drawings and when their stuff doesn't match my work I blast the drafter, the head drafter and the Survey Department head.
When I am doing layout on a plan designed by others, Icontact my client, tell them there are issues and let them know that I'm not working on it until the issues are resolved by the design Engineer and I get new CAD files.?ÿ More often than not, they'll ask me to fix it or "make it work" and I refuse.?ÿ I'm not fixing any plan that does not have my name on it.
With my 50% construction staking career with big firms where the design was staked by the firm using their survey department the key was a constructability review by all parties involved during the design process so the construction process went smoothly.?ÿ Costly, but the big developers realized design/construction control is?ÿ trivial concerning the money on the table so pay for premium services.
Little engineering shops lowball too like jackleg surveyors do and some of their designs were woefully inadequate. Best to shy away from subcontracting the stakeout work when a brief glance at the civil plans reveals inadequate control, fake boundaries, cartoon slopes and drainage facilities, etc.?ÿ Yah, you could stake it per plan but when it hits the fan you're just as liable.
@mike-marks If I stake something per the plan, what am I liable for? What risk am I taking that I should be avoiding?
@lurker?ÿ
It's been noted here before that when things go wrong EVERYBODY who touched it including the food truck driver gets sued. "I staked it per the plan" may or may not ultimately be a defense, but it will cost a lot to get to that point.
@lurker?ÿ
It's been noted here before that when things go wrong EVERYBODY who touched it including the food truck driver gets sued. "I staked it per the plan" may or may not ultimately be a defense, but it will cost a lot to get to that point.
Even the poop sucker truck people. They're surprisingly well funded too.
?ÿ
???
@bill93 So, to avoid the problem you mention one would have to not do any work. That is not reasonable. I want to know what I'm opening myself up to liability wise if I stake something per the plan.
@lurker?ÿ
It all really comes down to what the liability is you're agreeing to take on by signing their contracts. Those details are so specific in some ways and in others very vague to allow them a broad scope to encircle anyone who is working with them.?ÿ
Might be worth paying an hour or two to your legal people/person to draft up your own indemnity clause to limit yourself and your workers to exactly what you want to be doing.
We live unfortunately in a ridiculous litigious world and it seems everyone wants to go arbitration or suck you into their legal realm and give you no choices.
I'm sorry about my poop suckers comment, I was just trying to add levity.
?ÿ
I'm sorry about my poop suckers comment, I was just trying to add levity.
It worked. ?ÿKeep it flowing (downhill please, unless you are sucking it uphill??)
@mike-marks If I stake something per the plan, what am I liable for? What risk am I taking that I should be avoiding?
Here's the lawyer logic:?ÿ As a professional, if it is reasonable for you to detect an inconsistency/error/unconstructable problem in the plans you're staking and you stake to plan without alerting the other professionals, i.e. architect/engineer/construction contractor(s), you're culpable because you didn't meet the standard of care a professional is expected to meet.?ÿ Note the term "reasonable";?ÿ you aren't liable if a beam is too weak, a pipe is too small,?ÿ a retaining wall isn't strong enough, the earthwork contactor didn't compact enough, etc.?ÿ
But you may be liable if a slope is too steep for example, the plans say 1.5:1?ÿ but a simple scale laid on the plans shows toe to top of cut will be 3:1, or a simple eyeballing of a parking lot layout shows a 3' deep birdbath will form before that water gets to a drainage structure, or a building envelope plus setbacks is less than the lot width, or the plan shows the required number of parking stalls but when you multiply them by 8.5' wide each, there's less than will fit between the curbing.
There's much more to construction staking than blithely staking per plan.?ÿ Prior to any staking you (or your office) have to go over the plans with a fine toothed comb looking for inconsistencies in dimensions, locations and grades (both horizontal and vertical), you know, the surveying stuff.?ÿ For example,?ÿ when you get the architect's plan(s), you have to add?ÿ up all the interior dimensions, including walls, wall coverings, etc., and see if they add up to the building envelope dimensions on the civil plans.?ÿ A pain given that architects use inches and difficult if the building's not a simple rectangle.?ÿ You ask, who's gonna pay for that??ÿ Your client will because you build it in to your line item costs.?ÿ Staking a building, two hours in the field and three hours office time, charge accordingly.
?ÿ
You make a great argument for people doing construction staking to NOT BE LICENSED. I would guess that dollar wise it might be even in WA between licensed and unlicensed. (That is a WAG.)?ÿ The big ticket items are stake with basically zero PLS oversite and done by guys out of the union hall. (Yes, I know that there are licensed union guys, but I have never met one.)
?ÿ
Mike's response is right on.?ÿ I would only add that it's important to recognize the chain of command when reporting any errors or suspected errors in design plans.?ÿ I worked with a chicken little who cost us a good client and a lot of money by Cc'ing the world when he discovered an easily remedied problem.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.