Kent
Looks like everything is bigger in Texas. Especially the bills! I don't get involved in billing, but I'd guess that NOT blazing the line would save the client 20%.
Still trying to figure out why people would want a survey but not have the lines marked with at least some flagging???? Is it because the bank or planning board is requiring the survey?
There are lots of people around here who are only concerned with having the lines marked and don't even want to pay for a plat.
Kent
> Still trying to figure out why people would want a survey but not have the lines marked with at least some flagging?
Well, the usual practice for rural tracts is to build fences of some sort. That means clearing usually. Rough staking a line for clearing and then following up with permanent line stakes is the method that I think works best. None of that is usually done at the time of the purchase.
Typically here in central Maine "larger parcels" are wooded and many surveyors do not usually mark the lines they survey. I realized after years of practice that clients expect their lines to be marked and so we now routinely do it, though I refer to it as "rough flagging" in most communications and proposals.
I know up here in northern NH, when I am done most jobs, the landowner usually wants to walk the property with me. Pretty tough to show them what they paid thousands of dollars for when you dont mark the lines.
Just walked 120 acre parcel with the client today. We did the survey back in December and the client came home from Korea this week. Would have had a hard time explaining why the lines were not marked when he paid me in full in December. He was happy as hell to see the lines of his property. More so than seeing the corners.
Cost Depends On The Lot, But It Is Not Standard
I have worked on 1/2 acre lots that required 2 men to cut lines for 2 hours in order to clear lines for marking. Several times the 2 men were 15' apart and still could not see each other.
I have also worked on farmland surveys where it was 1 hour of clearing to get to the corner from a traverse point in the field.
And I have spent 1/2 day to drive to a tract with another, reconn the multiflora rose, then not even provide a quote. On the way there it was decided that the quote would include 2 new Carhart pants and jackets. We concluded at the best we could locate 2 wetlands points from each traverse point if we were lucky. On quarter of the boundary was somewhere in there. I do not know how the environmentalist made it out of there alive.
Paul in PA
No and, occasionally, yes. Most of our jobs result in one of two situations. Either there is a clear line of sight between consecutive monuments or nobody really cares because there is already a fence or tree row that no one wants to mess with for many years to come. From time to time we will have jobs where the goal is to construct improvements in the near future such that the true location of one or more boundary lines is critical throughout it's length. Then we will spend extra time installing some type of line marker at intervals agreeable to the client. All time required to meet the client's requirements will be accounted for when developing the final invoice or, rarely, when putting together what some people call a bid.
I fully comprehend how important additional boundary line markers and other means make sense routinely in tree-covered and/or mountainous terrain.
Kent
At the company I work for we generally mark all boundary lines (3 chop trees). However, we don't do this on jobs when a customer has specifically asked us not to do so. Usual circumstances for those cases are: (1) a customer owns a large tract of land (example 100 acres) and asks us to cut out 5 acres for mortgage purposes only. We set corner monuments of the 5 acres and show ties to the larger boundary, but don't mark to 5 acre line trees. (2) a customer receives a share of a large parcel of land by will and plans to buy up other shares as he can afford them. In the case we follow the same procedure from example (1).
In these situations marking the trees would be a waste of time and client's money since the lines are, in the long run, temporary.
Yes, in timberland I blaze and paint the boundaries. Typically 3 blazes stacked vertically are chopped with an axe then painted with red tree paint. Line trees are blazed on both sides on-line and off-line trees are blazed facing line. We also hang red "property line" flagging as close as practicable on-line.
Some Forest managers prefer post and sign.
Duane
I will suggest that lines be marked if the client does not want them marked and I think they should be. I will mark them in whatever way the client is willing to pay for. I have flagged and the client follows up by painting and blazing, and I have done the whole thing. Most of the time they don't want to pay for it.
Being licensed, I'm no longer able to run a compass line and flag it that way. If I, or someone working for me puts a flag on line it is expected to be on line. On the other hand, anyone else is free to run a compass line. I know a guy who did nothing but that for several years. His main client was a sand and gravel company. He would pull all the deeds, use a compass and string line on belt for distance direction. Flag and post all the companies holdings. Charged $25 per hour.
Problem with that is when things like cherry trees on the land become very valuable. I ran into one forester that was marking line for the client as we were surveying the parcel. He had strayed from one side all the way to the other (900ft). Local attraction can cause havoc around here. But even if they are close, the loggers want every possible tree. They will stay off the line by 25-50 feet (if they are reasonably ethical) if the line has been run with a compass. So, some clients see the value of knowing exactly where the line is depending on what they are doing with the property. Depends on the parcel, and on what type of marking the client agrees to, but marking line can cost more than the survey itself. And of course we have to explain it's not even possible (for us) to mark it without surveying it. So, some pass on the survey and the line marking and elect a compass line by themselves or the logger or whatever.
The only reason physical evidence holds is because of the uncertainty of measurement evidence. When measurement evidence is certain and physical evidence uncertain, then the measurements hold. That is already in our case law across the country. I think we will see more of that line of reasoning as the ease of precise measurement capability continues to spread.
Duane
great post Duane!
Unless we are just running a short line of a few hundred feet, the compass is generally for recon and to allow setting up the traverse without straying across the property lines. While an old blaze line or flag line may hold little weight in court, we always locate them when traversing to see how bad the lines are. The tough part comes when you find sections of ancient stone wall running 10 or 20 feet off the calculated line. It can be argued that the old stone walls are the best evidence of the original line (they were not build casually). I'm glad I don't have to make these decisions!
Do you ALWAYS contact the adjacent land owner to obtain permission to blaze their trees first?
Just curious. I know most timber companies are just happy having the line marked for free, but private non-timber company land holders are a different story these days.
I always thought a triple stacked blaze was a waste. We always did a double angled and single face blaze. Federal land typically got the double angled blaze. Seemed to work pretty well.
The double angled blaze allowed you to see some paint as you were looking down the line.
Duane
You mean you calculated a line and found it to be 10-20 feet off of the stone wall:)
That's actually just about right and proves the stone wall. The next surveyor, using my numbers, will calculate within a few tenths and find the wall. The surveyor after that will be able to calculate and get within a few hundredths. Then someone will have the bright idea to sell the stones to McDonalds (yes it's happening). Then someone will have the bright idea that the original description holds over the most recent one and stake the line 10-20 feet away from where it's been for 300 years. The things one sees in this business:-/
Depends on what the client wants/needs.
Both yes and no.
B-)
Yes we mark lines. Yes we charge extra for it and it's negotiated up front as it takes extra time, materials, and energy.
IF we create the line, through the brush, it is marked regardless of whether or not it's negotiated, unless it's a cut out for financing or something else where ownership isn't changing.
> IF we create the line, through the brush, it is marked regardless of whether or not it's negotiated,
I like that plan.
In the area I practice, the re-traced lines often have fence or tree lines that are good evidence of the proximity of the old line. When a new line is created, it is useful to mark it so that the line is visible.
I did just that same process this morning. Setting posts and pins every 200'+/-.
I don't break it down like a list of commodities. I determine what is required or requested, determine the effort and/or value of the service involved, and prepare an estimate.
When preparing an estimate for a boundary survey and it appears that found/set corner monuments will not be intervisible, I ask the question. If the client wants or needs intervisible points, I include the value of the effort in the estimate.
If the client has no need for intervisible points and does not want to pay for the effort, I don't force it on him.
That's right, we don't blaze tree all on adjoining land without permission. Without permission we just paint, no blazes.
