The neighbor's fence is between a foot and three feet over the deed line. And the fence is shown on a 1990s survey. This is holding up the building permits, because if the fence is treated as the boundary, the house no longer fits within the setbacks. I have had other jobs where I advised the builder to treat the occupation as the boundary line and apply setbacks from the long term occupation and not the deed line. Advised this client the same, but he believes the city will give him the permits if he can run a string from deed corner to deed corner and show that his foundation stakes are properly set back from the deed line and never mind the fence. He has built more houses than I have so he may have more practical knowledge.
As Jerry Broadus says in his book, every boundary survey is in part a prediction of how the court would rule. If the adjoiner wanted to exercise their unwritten rights and do a boundary line adjustment, seems to me it would be a slam dunk in court. My opinion is that the builder needs to treat that fence line as the boundary and trim the house design. Builder's opinion is to wait and see what happens. Adjoiner's opinion is that the surveyor got it all wrong.
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The only option is that the deed lines are the deed lines, the possession lines are not the title lines until the courts say they are.?ÿ While most of us have studied case laws and can come close to predicting what the courts might rule it is now within our realm of authority to apply case law in our determinations as that would amount to practicing law.
Our job is to locate the deed/title lines and show the evidence.?ÿ What happens with the title lines from there is out of our control.?ÿ
The builder should tell the adjoiner that he is going to rebuild the fence, and to that end he has had a survey mark the line.?ÿ Remove the old fence completely on a Friday, right down to bare earth. Wait a weekend, then rebuild on the survey line Monday. If there is no opposition you are golden.?ÿ
I once worked in an older subdivision where holding the oldest primary structures as being lot centered caused everything to fall into place except the recent surveys. The resent surveys created absurd results relative to 100 year old structures. The term deed line is a scourge to the surveying profession. The duty of the surveyor is to locate the legal boundary line.?ÿ
@chris-bouffard Do you never offer a professional opinion where the boundary line deviates from the deed line?
It's my opinion, that a fence is only there for convenience: it's there to keep something in; to keep something out; it's there to keep you from seeing the neighbors yard; to keep your neighbor from seeing your yard and it doesn't last for ever. If the adjoiner wants to claim adverse possession, it might be a slam dunk; a slam dunk for the attorney.?ÿ He's going to ask for a 10k retainer and then he will let them know when he needs more.
I was under the impression, that once a fence is shown on a survey, made known as to the relationship with the deeded boundary, that the clock on the adverse claim stops. Your client has a deed, and the adjoiner has a deed; they both say that they own up to the deed line, not to the fence. The 1990 survey shows that.
Until the court says: "The fence is the boundary", the contractor has every right to use the boundary line as shown in the 1990 survey.?ÿ
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Giving legal advice to a client, probably isn't a good idea, so I tell my clients: I give my advice away for free, but then you get what you pay for.
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Again, this is just my opinion, YMMV,
Dougie
I was under the impression, that once a fence is shown on a survey, made known as to the relationship with the deeded boundary, that the clock on the adverse claim stops.
Dougie, would you happen to have a Washington case law citation for this? Why would it stop the clock rather than prove the age of a claim?
@chris-bouffard Do you never offer a professional opinion where the boundary line deviates from the deed line?
I never have because to me the boundary line is the only thing I am commissioned to determine. Our law says "The surveyor shall analyze the data and make a careful determination of the position of the boundaries of the parcel or tract of land being surveyed."
@norm Norm, that is what I am getting at. A determination of the boundary has to be made. Not a determination of the deed line. So my question was "have you ever made a determination of the boundary that was not the deed line?." Or I could ask the opposite, "Have you always determined the deed line to be the boundary line?
@norm Norm, that is what I am getting at. A determination of the boundary has to be made. Not a determination of the deed line. So my question was "have you ever made a determination of the boundary that was not the deed line?." Or I could ask the opposite, "Have you always determined the deed line to be the boundary line?
I think the critical factor is: what is considered "deviation" from the deed line?
Is it when record metes & bounds are at variance with called-for monumentation? When the conveyance was junior to another, and so the actual property conveyed is less than the acreage called for in the deed? What about when we have a second deed conveying a portion of our subject property to another party?
Properly applied, the rules of construction allow us to determine where our subject parcel lies based on the deed. I don't think anyone here is advocating simply slapping the math on the ground and showing it as-is, so?ÿI wouldn't call any of those above scenarios "deviating" from the "deed line".
When it comes to showing occupation lines, possible encroachments and unwritten rights, they are clearly shown on my survey along with the lines of the subject parcel. But I'm not going to show those as the parcel boundary, or monument it as such, without a LOT of additional evidence. That's usually a separate survey, often after mediation or litigation takes place. My initial survey is going to depict the limits of the parcel being surveyed.
"Have you always determined the deed line to be the boundary line?
My understanding of deed lines is they are protracted and /or proportioned based on current measurements to remote marks comparable to those developed to set a new center of section or 40 corner every survey.?ÿ I never heard the term used for the first half of my career and never used it myself other than on this forum.?ÿ
@norm The boundary line does not deviate from the deed line.?ÿ Deed lines and title lines are not the same thing and when possession lines deviate from deed lines, title lines are not moved unless the courts adjust them.
Do I offer an opinion??ÿ No, I do not, what I do is point out what I have found to be in conflict with the deed lines, do I have an opinion, yes I do.?ÿ My advice would be to consult an attorney as I am not licensed to practice law and rendering an opinion would be doing just that.?ÿ If their Attorney contacts me and asks me what my opinion is, I'm more than happy to express my thoughts but not opinions.
More often than not, boundary conflicts or potential boundary conflicts quickly become emotionally charged.?ÿ People tend to hear only what they want to hear and I'm not willing to insert myself into a he said, she said situation.?ÿ We are Surveyors, we lay the title lines on the ground and locate obvious lines of possession and associated improvements, we do not determine title lines.?ÿ
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