Meander the creek and never, ever think that it has not changed location.
Research back to the first deed calling a creek the boundary as some scriveners may have changed words.
Tie all banks, center of stream and depth from top of bank.
Different strokes for different folks. What is custom one place is frequently the direct opposite of the custom somewhere else. I learned it one way. You learned it another. We are both correct, yet wrong in someone else's eye.
Holy Cow, post: 413534, member: 50 wrote: Different strokes for different folks. What is custom one place is frequently the direct opposite of the custom somewhere else. I learned it one way. You learned it another. We are both correct, yet wrong in someone else's eye.
And if I may expand, the most valuable lesson I was ever taught in Land Surveying was "it depends", try and respect the opinions of those who walked before you 😉
JPH, post: 413414, member: 6636 wrote: I shoot the stream and that's kind of how the hell I calculate the area. No reason those B-D need to be on the final plan.
Must be different customs, in the NE, or at least the parts I work, no one's "meandering" a stream. Usually a +/- length of the stream is on the plan and in the description. As said, a tie line is used to close the math.
In the NE it's much different and I'll tell you why...
Every real Estate purchase needs a survey. Every purchase needs an attorney.
Attorneys are obsessed with numbers just as much as engineers. Maybe even more so. ("Deed says 150.00 feet. Your survey says 150.01, why the difference? Please change it to match the deed")
So put two and two together and you get four, so to speak.
If I wrote a deed and didn't put B&D I would have 6 different people involved in the transaction ringing my phone off the hook, squabbling like the sky is falling.
I'm not sure about not putting them on the survey, but I'm personally fine with not in the deed.
One more thing on attorneys, they won't even accept "lot 2 on plat number 47372....." anymore as a description. They need the M&B as well, straight from the plat..... ridiculous if you ask me.
Rich., post: 413565, member: 10450 wrote: In the NE it's much different and I'll tell you why...
Every real Estate purchase needs a survey. Every purchase needs an attorney.
Attorneys are obsessed with numbers just as much as engineers. Maybe even more so. ("Deed says 150.00 feet. Your survey says 150.01, why the difference? Please change it to match the deed")
So put two and two together and you get four, so to speak.
If I wrote a deed and didn't put B&D I would have 6 different people involved in the transaction ringing my phone off the hook, squabbling like the sky is falling.
I'm not sure about not putting them on the survey, but I'm personally fine with not in the deed.
One more thing on attorneys, they won't even accept "lot 2 on plat number 47372....." anymore as a description. They need the M&B as well, straight from the plat..... ridiculous if you ask me.
simple Question just to clarify in my mind:
If a person wants to sell a property to another person, is it Required by Law to have a Survey and hire an Atty.?
Peter Ehlert, post: 413570, member: 60 wrote: simple Question just to clarify in my mind:
If a person wants to sell a property to another person, is it Required by Law to have a Survey and hire an Atty.?
Not that I'm aware of. Plenty of transactions happen without a survey. Now if you're talking Mortgage Inspection, sure some of the locations I work have those, but they aren't surveys.
Banks will have an attorney if you're getting a mortgage, but I'm assuming that happens everywhere.
Peter Ehlert, post: 413570, member: 60 wrote: simple Question just to clarify in my mind:
If a person wants to sell a property to another person, is it Required by Law to have a Survey and hire an Atty.?
Good question.
Maybe someone else can give a definite answer. Survey, no. But the title insurance companies won't insure without a survey. I guess if it's cash and you don't do insurance you wouldn't need a survey.
Attorney? I'm not positive but I've never seen a parcel be sold without attorneys doing the contracts, deeds, closing etc.
Rich., post: 413565, member: 10450 wrote: In the NE it's much different and I'll tell you why...
Every real Estate purchase needs a survey. Every purchase needs an attorney.
Attorneys are obsessed with numbers just as much as engineers. Maybe even more so. ("Deed says 150.00 feet. Your survey says 150.01, why the difference? Please change it to match the deed")
So put two and two together and you get four, so to speak.
If I wrote a deed and didn't put B&D I would have 6 different people involved in the transaction ringing my phone off the hook, squabbling like the sky is falling.
I'm not sure about not putting them on the survey, but I'm personally fine with not in the deed.
One more thing on attorneys, they won't even accept "lot 2 on plat number 47372....." anymore as a description. They need the M&B as well, straight from the plat..... ridiculous if you ask me.
I've never had anyone tell me to change a distance on a survey. Don't know where you work, but I don't think anyone really looks at things that closely, as far as the description goes. Sure, they look at area and location, but that's about it.
I can't even imagine putting B-D on the meanderings of a moving boundary. The creek is the boundary, and the +/- distance tells the average person their frontage. What more do they need?
And now that I think about it, many times when we are hired by title companies it is a cash deal. So even though there's no bank to require insurance, people still get it
JPH, post: 413574, member: 6636 wrote: I've never had anyone tell me to change a distance on a survey. Don't know where you work, but I don't think anyone really looks at things that closely, as far as the description goes. Sure, they look at area and location, but that's about it.
I can't even imagine putting B-D on the meanderings of a moving boundary. The creek is the boundary, and the +/- distance tells the average person their frontage. What more do they need?
I'm sure things vary greatly depending on area
Rich., post: 413573, member: 10450 wrote: Good question.
Maybe someone else can give a definite answer. Survey, no. But the title insurance companies won't insure without a survey. I guess if it's cash and you don't do insurance you wouldn't need a survey.
Attorney? I'm not positive but I've never seen a parcel be sold without attorneys doing the contracts, deeds, closing etc.
good to know. many people confuse custom with regulation.
they also confuse insurance and lender requirements ... lose are Local custom also.
I have not heard of any such laws or regulations. Maybe there are some such somewhere. just curious. thanks
Peter Ehlert, post: 413570, member: 60 wrote: simple Question just to clarify in my mind:
If a person wants to sell a property to another person, is it Required by Law to have a Survey and hire an Atty.?
My sister bought and sold an apartment in NYC and both times she was told an Attorney is required, by whom I'm not sure.
Dave Karoly, post: 413590, member: 94 wrote: My sister bought and sold an apartment in NYC and both times she was told an Attorney is required, by whom I'm not sure.
cousin Dave has been a broker in NYC for 20 years, I will ask him
flyin solo, post: 413417, member: 8089 wrote: Hahaha. There's, of course, the other end of it: bout a year ago I followed some kind soul who generously decided to set PKs and spindles at every 10"+ deflection (about every 45') down a mile of creekbed...
Every 10 seconds?
Tom Adams, post: 413466, member: 7285 wrote: Just some personal preference I think it's good to have the bearings and distances on the stream on the survey plat, because it shows where the stream is in that "snapshot in time". but I am torn on showing the bearings on a legal description. To me, you want the legal elements of the description to emphasize the (constantly changing) waterway as being the boundary. (of course using "to" and "along" type language helps the legal presumption that the bearings and distances are secondary to the stream)
The problem with giving a general direction of the stream and an approximate distance isn't like by a lot of government agencies like Counties. The assessor wants a checkable area
Not putting bearings and distances in descriptions cause problems for future surveyors in non recording states that don't have knowledge of or access to the survey plats.
Dave Karoly, post: 413590, member: 94 wrote: My sister bought and sold an apartment in NYC and both times she was told an Attorney is required, by whom I'm not sure.
Same with my brothers. I understand Attorneys are required. As I understand it, in this state, real estate agents are given a limited amount of authority to fill out transaction forms instead of needing a real estate attorney.
Steve Gilbert, post: 413599, member: 111 wrote: Every 10 seconds?
I don't know if that was the rule he was using, but it basically amounted to that.
flyin solo, post: 413616, member: 8089 wrote: I don't know if that was the rule he was using, but it basically amounted to that.
Same dude, btw, took a line that had been conveyed about 15 times in 140 years and put a PI in it. To a t-post. Amounted to about a two tenths deflection in the middle of a 1900' line.
I took it back out.
Rich., post: 413565, member: 10450 wrote: In the NE it's much different and I'll tell you why...
Every real Estate purchase needs a survey. Every purchase needs an attorney.
Attorneys are obsessed with numbers just as much as engineers. Maybe even more so. ("Deed says 150.00 feet. Your survey says 150.01, why the difference? Please change it to match the deed")
So put two and two together and you get four, so to speak.
If I wrote a deed and didn't put B&D I would have 6 different people involved in the transaction ringing my phone off the hook, squabbling like the sky is falling.
I'm not sure about not putting them on the survey, but I'm personally fine with not in the deed.
One more thing on attorneys, they won't even accept "lot 2 on plat number 47372....." anymore as a description. They need the M&B as well, straight from the plat..... ridiculous if you ask me.
Rich you really need to stand up to these people. Maybe I am just being hard headed, but I won't put any measurments on my plats that aren't what I measured.
I can understand not putting the B&D of a meandered creek in a written legal discription, but why would you leave them off the plat. Without them there is no way to check the area, the closure or to isolate blunders. The meanders also can be crucial in the event of an avulsion and to apportion any accretion.
aliquot, post: 413722, member: 2486 wrote: Rich you really need to stand up to these people. Maybe I am just being hard headed, but I won't put any measurments on my plats that aren't what I measured.
I can understand not putting the B&D of a meandered creek in a written legal discription, but why would you leave them off the plat. Without them there is no way to check the area, the closure or to isolate blunders. The meanders also can be crucial in the event of an avulsion and to apportion any accretion.
It's getting to be a long-ish thread, but you must've missed the part where I mentioned using a tie line for closure. Also, who's checking my area? If it's another surveyor, then he should be doing his own creek location and coming up with his own area, which shouldn't match mine, since a creek's location is fairly inaccurate.
Bottom line, a creek and any water boundary is moving and not in a fixed location, and assigning B-D to the creek gives the false impression that it is fixed. As far as erosion and accretion go, if the boundary is the creek, then it remains the creek, and any long-term gain or loss of land will be reflected in a more recent survey. If it's a sudden change, I'm thinking that it'd be somewhat known, and as said, I would have the location of the creek in my working dwg, and it'd be a different thing altogether if that's the point of the survey.
