James Fleming, post: 358033, member: 136 wrote: I have more of a problem with state boards who micro-manage the actions of licensees to the point where they aren't allowed to use their professional judgment on issues like this then the actual use or non use of contract crews. Sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes it's not...but it's a decision the professional should be making on the ground, based on the individual facts, rather than being regulated by the state.
Sometimes, I go help other PLS's and I do absolutely nothing but chop line. The way I understand it, since I have a license and I worked on the project there has to be a report or map provided to the client. What do the unlicensed guys do about insurance, how can they get E and O insurance, and do you think the licensed individuals E and O will cover them if the unlicensed non employee fieldcrew using their own equipment fubar's everything and it isn't caught by the PLS?
Rich., post: 357971, member: 10450 wrote: If you pay them directly and meet with them beforehand to brief them and give them direct orders on the 'game plan' to be carried out, then I don't see how this is any different than what 80% of surveyors are doing in their normal practice right now
You are saying that 80% of surveyors in your area don't have employees? They just pay people cash to perform work for them and then go home when the job is done? Does your Board allow this?
Jim in AZ, post: 358081, member: 249 wrote: You are saying that 80% of surveyors in your area don't have employees? They just pay people cash to perform work for them and then go home when the job is done? Does your Board allow this?
When your helpers work one or two or three days a week, they are not actually employees according to the IRS.
It is when they help you more than xxx hours or yyy days a year or you pay them more than $zzzz they fall into the employee category.
IN the long run, it is far better to place a complete crew into your list of employees than as a contract crew. It simplifies the liability issues and your insurance coverage is in place if needed.
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A Harris, post: 358094, member: 81 wrote: When your helpers work one or two or three days a week, they are not actually employees according to the IRS.
It is when they help you more than xxx hours or yyy days a year or you pay them more than $zzzz they fall into the employee category.
IN the long run, it is far better to place a complete crew into your list of employees than as a contract crew. It simplifies the liability issues and your insurance coverage is in place if needed.
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I agree. I dont even have a crew. I am my crew.
Jim in AZ, post: 358081, member: 249 wrote: You are saying that 80% of surveyors in your area don't have employees? They just pay people cash to perform work for them and then go home when the job is done? Does your Board allow this?
No, sorry, you misunderstood me.
Im saying, hypothetically, if the 'contracted crew' came into your office, gets briefed on the job, gets instructions on what to do, you pay them directly, and then you get the data afterwards, then that would be what 80% of surveyors do around me.
Surveyors around me dont do contract crews, the crews are employees, but the employees do that same thing... show up, get briefed, go do the fieldwork and report back with the data. The surveyor doesn't go into the field so to me it is the same level of supervision as long as the contracted crew knows how to do the fieldwork.
Surveying the Midwest, post: 357939, member: 10952 wrote: Thanks Jimmy...
My concern is primarily when a firm contracts out the field work portion only and then relies on that information, from a distance, to prepare and sign/stamp a final survey in-house. I am aware of a few national firms that do this type of work and I think it violates most licensing statutes/rules in my humble opinion. If the "crew" is also licensed and does this field work under these circumstances is he/she perpetuating a violation of the statutes/rules in that state? The answer is probably "it depends" on what state specifically.
Doing field to finish work as a sub where you sign/stamp shouldn't be an issue from what I understand.
Assuming you are contracting out to a Licensed individual, I don't really see the practical difference between that and having your own employees do your fieldwork. Other than the occasional jaunt out to check on your crew and make sure they are doing things the right way, don't many of us rely on our non licensed PC to go and do the field work portion only and rely on it, from a distance, to prepare and sign/stamp a final survey?
I'm completely with you on somehow just hiring random people you don't know, but if it's old Bill from down the street, and you know he does good work from running up against it for years, what's the practical difference between throwing him some field work and asking your field crew to do it? You are probably just as, if not more likely, to go check on him as you would your own crew.
Seems like Florida had this issue back in the early 90's. As I remember it some temp agencies where renting crews for a rate, truck and everything. Board went after them. They fought it and the board lost as I remember the first round. Now the laws may have changed to close what ever loophole the temp agency had I am not sure. I remmber I was upset on the ruling because at the time there were several large firms that would go after big jobs and just hire them for the project.
mattyoclock, post: 358125, member: 10773 wrote: Assuming you are contracting out to a Licensed individual, I don't really see the practical difference between that and having your own employees do your fieldwork. Other than the occasional jaunt out to check on your crew and make sure they are doing things the right way, don't many of us rely on our non licensed PC to go and do the field work portion only and rely on it, from a distance, to prepare and sign/stamp a final survey?
I'm completely with you on somehow just hiring random people you don't know, but if it's old Bill from down the street, and you know he does good work from running up against it for years, what's the practical difference between throwing him some field work and asking your field crew to do it? You are probably just as, if not more likely, to go check on him as you would your own crew.
"...don't many of us rely on our non licensed PC to go and do the field work portion only and rely on it, from a distance, to prepare and sign/stamp a final survey? "
I hope not!! I have had a licensed crew chief for at least the last 30 years... That is norm for this area - and I think for this State. We occasionally have a non-licensed crew member locate potholes or perform some topo surveying, but NEVER any boundary work. I don't think I could sleep at night with a non-licensed person in that capacity!
Jim in AZ, post: 358134, member: 249 wrote: "...don't many of us rely on our non licensed PC to go and do the field work portion only and rely on it, from a distance, to prepare and sign/stamp a final survey? "
I hope not!! I have had a licensed crew chief for at least the last 30 years... That is norm for this area - and I think for this State. We occasionally have a non-licensed crew member locate potholes or perform some topo surveying, but NEVER any boundary work. I don't think I could sleep at night with a non-licensed person in that capacity!
Not here. Unless it's some big firm a lot of times there is only 1 LS. Maybe 2 if it's family, but the fieldwork is mostly done by non licensed PCs
Food for thought:
Are you providing surveying services if a company is providing crews to do fieldwork only?
In that sense they aren't providing surveys, just crews. Crew rental. Joe Somebody cannot call them for a survey of their property bc that's not the service they provide.
I'm sure either way it's illegal in most states but it something they could argue.
Jim in AZ, post: 358134, member: 249 wrote: "...don't many of us rely on our non licensed PC to go and do the field work portion only and rely on it, from a distance, to prepare and sign/stamp a final survey? "
I hope not!! I have had a licensed crew chief for at least the last 30 years... That is norm for this area - and I think for this State. We occasionally have a non-licensed crew member locate potholes or perform some topo surveying, but NEVER any boundary work. I don't think I could sleep at night with a non-licensed person in that capacity!
Your area must be blessed, I don't know of any licensed PCs up here outside of when the owner runs his own crew. Like Rich said, it's the rare firm that has more than one PLS, overseeing somewhere between 3-8 crews. Hell I heard of a place shutting down because their PLS was in an accident, and they couldn't attract a replacement in time.
mattyoclock, post: 358149, member: 10773 wrote: Your area must be blessed, I don't know of any licensed PCs up here outside of when the owner runs his own crew. Like Rich said, it's the rare firm that has more than one PLS, overseeing somewhere between 3-8 crews. Hell I heard of a place shutting down because their PLS was in an accident, and they couldn't attract a replacement in time.
Yup. Last 3 months I've gotten 2 emails about local surveyors retiring. Instead of the businesses carrying on as usual, the email is about selling the company, records and equipment.
Jim in AZ, post: 358134, member: 249 wrote: "...don't many of us rely on our non licensed PC to go and do the field work portion only and rely on it, from a distance, to prepare and sign/stamp a final survey? "
I hope not!! I have had a licensed crew chief for at least the last 30 years... That is norm for this area - and I think for this State. We occasionally have a non-licensed crew member locate potholes or perform some topo surveying, but NEVER any boundary work. I don't think I could sleep at night with a non-licensed person in that capacity!
I've been working full time as a surveyor since 1994, licensed since 2005, the standard that I've observed in my career so far is that the PLS is not part of the field crew. At one point, I worked for a company that had 5 licensed surveyors on staff. Every one of us worked in the office either managing field crews, working on boundaries and mapping, or other "supervisory work". None of our licensed people went out in the field unless it was to meet with the client at the start of a job or to meet with a neighbor that was upset about the survey work. The only licensed individuals that I know of going out in the field are those who are self-employed so they are the field crew and the office crew.
Jim in AZ, post: 358134, member: 249 wrote: "...don't many of us rely on our non licensed PC to go and do the field work portion only and rely on it, from a distance, to prepare and sign/stamp a final survey? "
I hope not!! I have had a licensed crew chief for at least the last 30 years... That is norm for this area - and I think for this State. We occasionally have a non-licensed crew member locate potholes or perform some topo surveying, but NEVER any boundary work. I don't think I could sleep at night with a non-licensed person in that capacity!
Jim, I worked in AZ (primarily Tucson) from 1984-1986 as a Party Chief and was not licensed at that time. And I cannot recall any of the other Party Chiefs being licensed either. We had two licensees in the office that supervised all the field/office staff. This was for several firms that I am aware of.
Before that in Colorado and later in Massachusetts and California, the Party Chief was rarely licensed and then usually because the person wanted to remain in the field or as someone else mentioned, it was a small firm and the PLS went out in the field also.
I'm 50/50 in the field/office. No other crew tho, just me, so I have no choice. I'd love to get a crew going for me but it just isn't easy.... :-/
Ric Moore, post: 358156, member: 731 wrote: Jim, I worked in AZ (primarily Tucson) from 1984-1986 as a Party Chief and was not licensed at that time. And I cannot recall any of the other Party Chiefs being licensed either. We had two licensees in the office that supervised all the field/office staff. This was for several firms that I am aware of.
Before that in Colorado and later in Massachusetts and California, the Party Chief was rarely licensed and then usually because the person wanted to remain in the field or as someone else mentioned, it was a small firm and the PLS went out in the field also.
Ric - I understand. This is a significant issue involving current complaints with the BTR. I guess its usually not a problem until the Registrant winds up in a hearing (or in court) and is asked if he "walked the line" or if he was ever on the ground. When he says no he has automatically lost all credibility.
I have a close friend who was the Survey Dept. Manager for a major firm in PHX in beginning the 1980's and runnung through the collapse in 2008. At one time he "supervised" 13 field crews. I asked him if he was really "supervising" them and he laughed at me. He essentially scheduled where they went, but very little beyond that, but he was the "Registrant in Charge."
I am in a different part of the State, and I can't recall any of the firms here (at least 12 firms) not having registrant crew chiefs for decades. I have had one (or more) since 1983 and would not contemplate performing boundary work without a registrant in the field full-time.
Jim in AZ, post: 358226, member: 249 wrote: Ric - I understand. This is a significant issue involving current complaints with the BTR. I guess its usually not a problem until the Registrant winds up in a hearing (or in court) and is asked if he "walked the line" or if he was ever on the ground. When he says no he has automatically lost all credibility.
This is a very important issue. Right now we have 2 field crews that go out and do our work. In most cases, what they are doing doesn't really need me to be out there on the ground all of the time. Construction staking and recovery of survey monuments is usually something that they can do without much difficulty. And on many boundary surveys, the monuments that are found fit the record fairly well and there isn't much concern that there will be any sort of dispute.
But if there is a dispute or discrepancy, I will take the effort to go out to the site and take a look around at things myself. And that is specifically so that I can both say that I was there, investigating the conditions on site. Also, putting my feet on the ground on the site often gives me a better perspective of what it actually going on and I may end up understanding things better.
Californication must really be the land of milk and honey. Almost every monument/trash we discover is in need of analysis by someone who is going to take the hit if the analysis is improperly made.
Jim in AZ, post: 358226, member: 249 wrote: Ric - I understand. This is a significant issue involving current complaints with the BTR. I guess its usually not a problem until the Registrant winds up in a hearing (or in court) and is asked if he "walked the line" or if he was ever on the ground. When he says no he has automatically lost all credibility.
I have a close friend who was the Survey Dept. Manager for a major firm in PHX in beginning the 1980's and runnung through the collapse in 2008. At one time he "supervised" 13 field crews. I asked him if he was really "supervising" them and he laughed at me. He essentially scheduled where they went, but very little beyond that, but he was the "Registrant in Charge."
I am in a different part of the State, and I can't recall any of the firms here (at least 12 firms) not having registrant crew chiefs for decades. I have had one (or more) since 1983 and would not contemplate performing boundary work without a registrant in the field full-time.
Even on my best day, I wouldn't attempt to maintain appropriate responsible charge of 18 crews simultaneously. I would want additional licensee's involved with that.
I get it your point of view. I learned a long time ago that I walk all my projects, especially the boundary ones, before finalizing the surveys.
Holy Cow, post: 358265, member: 50 wrote: Californication must really be the land of milk and honey. Almost every monument/trash we discover is in need of analysis by someone who is going to take the hit if the analysis is improperly made.
That's just so we know when the big one hits and we're about to die
