I've been recently strongly considering trying to get into the surveying field, but looking for some info and advice. First, a little background. I'm 30 years old, live in New York, did 4 years in the Marine Corps, got out and worked as a carpenter for a year, went back to school on the GI Bill and got my bachelors in civil engineering, got my first job in engineering working as a structural engineer for upgrades on cell towers, which I've been doing about 4 months now. Basically, I can't stand my job. Can't stand sitting behind a computer all day. Even though I know there are other types of jobs in engineering, I've just been thinking I don't know if this whole thing is for me. I remember taking a pretty extensive career test when I was getting out of the Marines and land surveyor came up as the top match for me. Took one class in college on surveying, and even only half of that class was dedicated to surveying, but I remember thinking maybe I should just do this. Basically I'd prefer to be outside and doing something. I kind of liked carpentry (more than I like my current job), but sometimes it gets extremely strenuous and can take a toll on your body after a while. But to just be outside collecting data, carrying equipment, walking around, I would have no problem with that. The heat and cold are not an issue for me. But I'm trying to get some input from actual surveyors. I've done plenty of google searches and read from plenty of people that were just sh***ing all over the profession, either because they never liked it and just happened to fall into it without any other options, or because the market is so terrible and they've been out of work for so long. Anyway, wanted to post a few questions:
1) Am I mistaken for wanting to get into surveying when I have an engineering degree and could possibly be a PE in a few years? Based on my how I am I feel like it's something that's more suited to me, but I don't know if it's like a lot of other things, where you start doing it and find out it's not what you expected and it just sucks in its own way.
2) Can you get your surveyor's license in NY with a bachelor's in civil engineering? I know the qualification says something about education, but I feel like it's kind of vague and since civil engineering is related and is a very technical field, can you survey for 4 years and take the licensing test? Or do you specifically need a bachelor's in surveying to be able to apply after 4 years?
3) What kind of background do you need to take the 1st test, I forget what it's called but basically the surveying equivalent of the FE exam (which I did pass already). Is it very specialized to surveying knowledge, or can someone with good math skills and a little bit of surveying experience pass it.
3) Money, that's a big thing obviously. I've never been looking to get rich by any means, but is it possible to start out with decent pay in this field with my background but no experience in the field. My current job started at 50K, which in this part of the country doesn't actually turn out to be much. I could do with less, but I don't think I could survive on like $15 an hour very long, without the prospect of more money after a little experience. Any answers from New Yorkers would be most helpful here. Specifically, the lower Hudson Valley - Westchester, Putnam, Rockland, Orange, Dutchess Counties.
Sorry this turned out to be so long. But I'm kind of at a crossroads here and am looking for some input and advice.
With the degree you already have you could probably fill in the rest for surveying with online courses. There are several programs. Each state varies a bit on the licensing requirements so you'd need to check that out. Then you would need to get the experience required to take the exam. So you would need to get employed working with a land surveying type company. Considering your age you might want to pursue both licenses. Just see if you can get employed by a civil/surveying firm that does both so your experience will go either way.
If it's just you (no family) then go for it. Engineers are jealous of us. Never do a job just for the money.
In California Civil PEs don't have to take the PS (LSIT) exam. Beware in the private sector LSs are office bound more often than not.
PA is a place to look. In order to take the FS exam you would need 10 surveying credits in addition to your CE degree. You have several opportunities to get those credits in New York:
Alfred State, SUNY
My old link to Alfred State is not working
Mohawk Valley Community College
http://www.mvcc.edu/academic-programs/degrees/surveying-technology
Paul Smiths
http://www.paulsmiths.edu/forestry/surveying.php
SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry
http://www.esf.edu/rangerschool/programs/lst.htm
As I said a CE degree and 10 credits qualifies you to sit for the Fundamentals of Surveying, but withoout prior experience I believe 15-18 credits should give you enough of a surveying education spread to pass the exam.
Do not consider that completing an AS program and excepting the degree is a step backward, it is just getting additional specific knowledge.
Considering where you are currently located, there is Essex County Community College in Newark
http://www.essex.edu/academics/programs/pdfs/civil.const.eng.land.program.pdf
Or you can roll West on I-84 to Penn State Wilkes-Barre
http://www.essex.edu/academics/programs/pdfs/civil.const.eng.land.program.pdf
MVCC has 2 online surveying courses this spring semester so I suggest you talk with Duayne Frymire at MVCC.
Duane Frymire E-mail Address(es): dcfpls@frontiernet.net
Paul in PA
Ken, If you like
working out in the elements, this is a great job. If you like being autonomous, this is a great job. If you like mathematics, this is a great job. If you like having to know legal priciples and their applications to your work, this is a great job. If you like searching for historical monuments, this is a great job. If you like putting together puzzles, this is a great job. If you like short road trips, this is a great job. If you like eating at what may be a greasy spoon joint, even if only once, this is a great job. If you like seeing parts of town you previously had only read about, this is a great job.
On the other hand, if you don't mind being exposed to poison ivy, oak and sumac, this is a great job. If you don't mind snakes, skunks, alligators, bears, llamas, dogs, gangs of little old blue-haired women (hey, they can be dangerous, too)and cranky neighbors, this is a great job.
The only thing I have heard that is a real pain to every single owner of a land surveying firm is the collection of monies owed to them, or you. ALWAYS get a signed contract, always. Make it COD, if at all possible. Otherwise you better know Moose and Rocco really well.
All good advice here. I will add one more thing: If you can continue your current job while taking the surveying classes online. Finish the requirements and get your PE, than switch jobs to work on the PS. If you have both, you will be that more valuable to employers and able to find a job even if it is not always your first choice.
A Civil Engineer with experience setting construction stakes is a better Civil designer later.
My Dad started out as a Party Chief in the 1950s after graduating with a BSCE from UC Berkeley.
Ken,
If you don't mind moving to Long Island I know a firm looking for someone with your education. The email in my proflie is good.
On the practical side of things, in NY:
You must have full qualifications to take both parts of the exam in order to take the first part, if you don't have a bachelor degree in surveying. The board might waive that for a CE bachelor. As Paul mentioned, the PA requirements are a bit different and students from NY's bachelor program go there to take the first part before they graduate (CE students go to vermont for a similar reason).
For experience you will need at least 2 years (50% of whatever experience is required) "in responsible charge" of land boundary work (the 15-20 dollar an hour stuff). The other 2 years can be construction or scanning or whatever, which generally pay better. Surveyors are part of the operating engineers union in NY, and work through that or on government funded construction projects can pay in the 50-80 dollar an hour range. I had a guest speaker last year that worked in construction and never bothered to get licensed; made more than most licensed surveyors I've met.
You need to be careful on how you document your experience because if you use it for the PE then you can't use it for the LS, and vice versa.
I think the CE degree would give you 3 years toward the LS (check with the board). You would not necessarily need another degree to pursue the LS, however, at least some more courses would be highly beneficial.
We have a two course sequence in legal principles that runs online.These amount to 6 credit hours in land boundary topics. I have one PE in the course right now, and a couple dual majors.
The dual license is a real plus, especially in NY. A multidiscipline firm might give you a chance to get some experience toward both licenses, but they may not want to use you on a field crew when you could be generating CE work in the office. Generally best to get the low paying boundary experience out of the way early in your career. Not the way it should be, but that's the way it is.
Practicality aside; I hate to see people doing something they hate for very long. Only here once for a short time. I recommend taking the online courses and looking for some work with a firm that is into transportation engineering. You may get in with an inspector position that would have surveying components.
You can contact me to discuss further if you wish.
Duane Frymire
dfrymire@mvcc.edu
I can't give any local advice, but it sounds like Duane Frymire has a good handle on what you need.
I am concerned that you can't really make the wage you want (need?) right away. It's tough for an employer to hire someone in with less "field" understanding than some of his more experienced help. I make an okay living right now, but it still doesn't compare to most Engineers' wages.
My only advice from my perspective, is
that it does sound like surveying is a job you would probably enjoy.
If you can accept the lower wage for a little while, you might want to have the attitude that it's like schooling, but you are making a little money instead of paying for it.
The exam isn't a slam-dunk for an engineering major. You need at least a little education in the land surveying arena. The higher level of math courses isn't all there is to the exam. Learning some good boundary and legal principles is virtually essential in working in land surveying as well as being able to pass your exam.
(also) Learning some of the mathematics as it applies to measurement and surveying in general, might be needed by you in spite of your having a higher-math background.
Possibly trying to pursue licenses in both areas would be a real advantage. I know a couple of Engineer/Land Surveyors. The ones I know seem like a real asset to the profession.
What are you willing to accept?
Ken, many good responses above, but wanted to share my experience with you as well. I recieved my BS in Civil from UMass. Worked strictly engineering for my 1st year out of school (after working part time doing survey at a construction company while completing my last semester) and was not enjoying myself. Got into survey and began to pursue my license. 10 years later, I have my license, I manage the field crews at my company, and I'm working towards my PE. I'll always be a surveyor first, but there are benefits to dual registration, as others have mentioned above.
I think passing the FLS would not be a problem for you. From what I remember, it was mostly math based and not overly difficult. However, very little of your education will help you with the PLS exam. That knowledge needs to come with time, experience, and a lot of reading/studying on your own. The Massachusetts Association of Land Surveyors and Civil Engineers offers a survey certificat program here for people trying to get licensed. There are courses in legal principles, state regualtions, and survey procedure. NY hopefully offers a similar program that I would encourage you to look into.
All that being said, you will most likely have to accept working for a lower wage than you would bring in if you stayed with civil. Expect long hours, hard physical work, and potential winter layoffs. These are just part of the business. As was suggested above, maybe you could split your time between engineering and survey.
I do not regret changing my direction and pursuing my PLS even though I could have potentially obtained my PE a few years earlier, and had been earning more $. That was the decision I had to make. I think that "sacrifice" will pay off later in my career if I can swing the PE, and end up as a dual registrant.
Follow your heart man. We're not around for very long. You dont want to end up getting stuck doing something you hate, and wondering what happened to your life.
Good luck brotha.
-V
Stick with engineering. You're well on your way toward your license, which you should make as your goal.
You're correct, there are many different types of engineering jobs out there, and you'll probably eventually find one that fits your interests.
You've only been working for a short time, you can't really expect that you'd start out in the most challenging, interesting, exciting, best-paying position. Be patient, and give it some time. There's no need to head down a different path, which may not turn out to be what you were hoping either.
I love surveying, but might be doing something else if I were able to start over.
What are you willing to accept?
> Follow your heart man. We're not around for very long. You dont want to end up getting stuck doing something you hate, and wondering what happened to your life.
:good:
Duane probably has a better handle on the requirements than I do but my recollection is that all of your experience needs to be in boundary work to count towards your eligibility requirements to sit for the exams in NYS.
Licensed Land Surveyor
Finger Lakes Region, Upstate New York
About That $15 Per Hour
I was a licensed PE for about 15 years when I decided I prefered surveying. I took on part time survey crew work at regular crew rates to balance out my experience. Having more than enough of everything else, I needed to add 1 year of boundary line field work. I did it as I could afford to take time off from paying the bills through engineering work. The lost opportunity costs to do that far exceeded the cost of the 39 surveying credits I earned. The total cost to become a surveyor came to a sum I could never fully recoup doing survey work, but I am very glad I did it anyway. Many people questioned why I would even do that.
It will not be a fast process, but I think it worthwhile. Continue your engineering work but begin to pick up survey courses as soon as you can. Once you have the two bottom intro courses you would be a worthwhile assistant to a surveyor/mentor. If you can find a nearby surveyor on the tail end of his career it would be best. At that stage he is not out to take every stakeout job he can find and is generally more interested in bona fide boundary line work. For instance the gentleman I worked for asked me to help him out for only 5 days of hub pounding over the part time 5 years it took to gather that 1 year of field work. For a decent assistant he may well be happy to work Saturdays with you, maybe a 1/2 day in the field and you do another 1/2 day on the computer. You definitely want to work as a W-2 employee so there is no question as to the supervision. Keep good track of work hours, a pocket daytimer is sufficient.
In the past working only on weekends made it hard to get courthouse deed research experience. That is now changed with more that half the local counties having online resources now. In fact just being able to efficiently do that may in fact make you attractive to some survey firms.
Keep in mind that very few engineers can actually get 4 years of design experience in the first 4 years out of college. Even 5 or 6 may be pushing it. Also be aware that certain engineering work could be surveying work. Designing lots in a subdivision, stormwater design and road grades can be applied in PA. Get the various state laws in your immediate area and plan yout test attack route. With the CE degree once you have 10 surveying credits you can apply in PA for the Fundamentals. Take it as soon as you can, because after you pass your surveying experience counts toward the PS requirements. By 2014 the exam will not be limited to April or October as NCEES goes to a computer based exam. It is my understanding that surveying may be first on the list, because it involves fewer applicants and can be a beta test for the much larger number of engineering test takers. It is also my understanding that a test may be taken 3 times within a calendar year. Of course failing it 3 times requires re-application. Having an additional college course or 2 is sufficient to get you back in without much question.
Having passed the FS, you may then consider taking the PS in a different state as the experience year requirements are different. Given your full time engineering employment you would most likely be able to sit for the PE before the PS if you stuck to PA. For the PS, having taken the FS PA is looking for 4 years boundary line experience with a minimum of 25% in field or office work. Again as an engineer you woudl be more likely to rack up 3 years office and 1 year field with some time frame.
Right now there may soon be an opportunity as the gas well drillers move out of PA into New York. Field work in that area would cover both professions.
Paul in PA
My experience, as someone with a BS in Surveying and Mapping: If you work for a firm of any decent size you will be sitting in an office behind a computer more than you think. As I like to explain it: Shortly into my career, I became too expensive an asset to leave in the field. I quickly became overpriced to do grunt work which could be accomplished by less expensive field personnel. When I say I am a Surveyor, most people presume I spend my work day outside in the field. In reality, I spent 95% of my time directing field crews, working up projects for crews, reading title work, reviewing survey drafting, digging through files, preparing proposals, and less than 5% in the field doing anything resembling field work. When I worked for the govt, I was spending almost ZERO time in the field.
If it were me, I'd get the P.E. in C.E. and find a firm that employs both CE's and Licensed Surveyors.
Appreciate all the input. Wasn't expecting so many responses so fast. Alot of info on the licensing thing. Didn't mean to give the impression that I was fixated on getting a license, I just don't know if that's something that's really necessary to make a decent living in this profession. I mean I know you can make a perfectly comfortable salary in engineering without getting your PE, and I know you can work in a construction trade and make good money if you're competent at what you do. But I have no idea about the surveying field. Can you start out with no experience, and work your way up to decent wages in a few years if you absorb everything and get good at what you do. Or is surveying generally a lower paid profession for the guys actually in the field. I know Mr Frymire mentioned the operating engineers making 50-80 an hour, but what about just the average non-licensed but fully competent non-union surveyor. Just to clarify, I'm not after making lots of money here. If I was I'd just stick with what I'm doing and see where that goes. I realize it would be a pay cut, probably a big one to start. I'm just wondering if I could get by, so I'm just trying to figure out how much I could expect to start at, and in what time frame and what increments I could expect to move up. I realize no one can really answer that for me because each employer is different and each situation is different and there's different costs of living around the country. But this is what's been going through my head.
Stick with CE a while or jump right in. Either way get some intro to surveying courses ASAP, then take the fundametals exam. That is enough to make you more valuable to any surveying or engineering firm. The cost of those intro courses and exam can be recouped in the extra salary in one year. After that things slow down, as you gather experience.
Paul in PA
