I am building a fence around 5 acres that I own. This is all basically farm land with no trees or other obstructions. The 5 acres is bounded by public roads on the south and east, and 7 acres that I own on the west. The only place it borders anyone else is on the north. ?ÿ
The legal description from the deed is as follows:
A tract of land out of the South 1/2 of Section 14, Block A-K, ?ÿbeing more particularly?ÿdescribed as follows:
BEGINNING at a railroad spike, set for the Southeast corner of Section 14, Block A-K, the Southeast and beginning corner of this tract;
THENCE North 0?ø 01' 20" West, along the center of a paved county road and the East line of Section 14, Block A-K, 376.00 feet to a railroad spike set for the Northeast corner of this tract;
THENCE West, at 60.00 feet pass a 1/2" iron rod, set in the West line of said paved county road, continuing for a total distance of 580.00 feet to a 1/2" iron rod set for the Northwest corner of this tract;
THENCE South 0?ø 01' 20" East, at 326.00 feet pass a 1/2" iron rod in the North line of a paved county road, continuing for a total distance of 376.00 feet to a railroad spike set in the center of a paved county road and the South line of Section 14, Block A-K, for the Southwest corner of this tract;
THENCE East, along the center of said county road and the South line of Section 14, Block A-K, 580.00 feet to the place of beginning.
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I am not a RPLS but I work with RTK on a daily basis. I spent an afternoon investigating this and I found all three railroad spikes in the road, as well as the three 1/2" iron rods. I took shots with my R10 on these six items. I have no doubt that they are the correct and only markers present. The landowner who owns the land to the north pounded t posts beside the iron rods on the northern boundary when it was originally surveyed and the rods were right next to the t posts. The railroad spikes are right in the middle of the roads.
The landowner to the north and I both agree the boundary between our properties is where the t posts are and have accepted it as such for the 11 years I have lived here. No disputes of any kind.?ÿ
I am building a pipe fence with 8' spacing on the posts. My plans were to build a stakeout file for the fence posts and mark and dig all the post holes using RTK. We will then use a wire stretched between the corners to set the posts in concrete.?ÿ
Anyway what is confusing me is the bearings and distances are not jiving with the deed.?ÿ
For example
BEGINNING at a railroad spike, set for the Southeast corner of Section 14, Block A-K, the Southeast and beginning corner of this tract;
THENCE North 0?ø 01' 20" West, along the center of a paved county road and the East line of Section 14, Block A-K, 376.00 feet to a railroad spike set for the Northeast corner of this tract;
Actually measures 372.564' and N 2.3194 E
THENCE West, at 60.00 feet pass a 1/2" iron rod, set in the West line of said paved county road, continuing for a total distance of 580.00 feet to a 1/2" iron rod set for the Northwest corner of this tract;
The 60' iron rod is at 59.939' and the NW iron rod is at 579.259' at N 88.1651 W
THENCE South 0?ø 01' 20" East, at 326.00 feet pass a 1/2" iron rod in the North line of a paved county road, continuing for a total distance of 376.00 feet to a railroad spike set in the center of a paved county road and the South line of Section 14, Block A-K, for the Southwest corner of this tract;
The 1/2" rod is at 325.535' and S 1.8564 W. The railroad spike is at 375.754'
THENCE East, along the center of said county road and the South line of Section 14, Block A-K, 580.00 feet to the place of beginning.
This distance is 576.608' and S 88.4834 E
I normally do oilfield related work and everything I check out when provided control or existing coordinates is usually within a few tenths. To me these discrepancies are huge. Is this type of thing normal? This tract was probably originally surveyed back in the 80s. I know the "right" answer is to hire a surveyor to perform a survey but my problem is I have next week off work and help lined up to build this fence. Called two local surveyors today and neither can do anything until September. I thoroughly checked around these markers with a schonstedt and there are no other markers. Three sides of the property are either bordering roads or property I own so I am not too worried about them. The only one that makes me a little nervous is the north side but as mentioned the landowner to the north and I both have agreed these t posts (which are right next to the rods) mark the boundary and have for over ten years.?ÿ
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My advice?
If you and the neighbor are agreeable then build the fence on-line from monument to monument.
The 3-1/2 foot discrepancy is large but the others aren't unheard of on a rural tract like that. They are called for in the deed and it's only a fence.
Thanks. That is kind of my thought as well but I was hoping that an afternoon spent finding these monuments and shooting them in would give me a warm fuzzy feeling when I looked at the data but instead I am ???ñ?ÿ
What Dave said.
Old bearings are rarely geodetic but either with compass and some approximate declination, or else assumed on one line to match an older survey.
3+ ft is puzzling, but monuments fitting accepted occupation will trump measurements.
If the railroad spike in the SE corner was moved south and east the 3’ or whatever everything else would match up but this spike represents the section corner so I figured it would be the most accurate. I figured my bearings wouldn’t match the deed but I figured they would at least form a rectangle.
To figure it out, it might help to check for records on the history on the section corner. Maybe after the deed was written the corner was destroyed and proportioned back in.
Another consideration: ?ÿdetermine a worst-case location for that line that someone else might potentially determine in the future, then build your fence on the safe side of that line?
Is there more vertical relief along the line with the 3+ foot discrepancy?
There is less than 3’ elevation difference across the entire tract.
figured as much, in a true boundary survey the next step is to check the adjoining deeds and investigate if that discrepancy continues to manifest.
Edit: it can get pretty convoluted, but a monument in the wrong place can mature into the correct place as land is bought and sold. And that's not to indicate that a monument is in the wrong place simply because it doesn't match the bearings and distances in the deed. Bearings and distances should usually be viewed as evidence that helps you find the monument.
Very odd that the distance on the east is short by 3.4 feet and the distance on the south is also short by 3.4 feet.?ÿ Perhaps there is another railroad spike roughly 3.4 east and 3.4 south of the one you found.?ÿ It may be two feet deep, though, or at least not as readily apparent.
A one time error of 3.4 feet in such a short distance is odd.?ÿ Twice really makes no sense whatsoever.?ÿ Especially when the other numbers are typical for an original measurement using a 100-foot tape versus current digital measurement methods.
I'm familiar with this Section of land. There are two railroad spikes at the Southeast corner of Section 14, Block A-K. Look 3.2' East and 3.4' South of the one you found. Sounds like the surveyor held the railroad spike that is further south which I held as well.
@holy-cow that is exactly the case here. I've surveyed the Section to the East and there are two railroad spikes. The spike to the South is the one I've held and it appears that other surveyors have held over the years. Not sure who set the other spike or why.
@turnercyrilh
Thank you! I will go check it out shortly and report back. You weren’t by chance out surveying in the section East yesterday were you? I saw someone out there yesterday where they divided it into all of those 10 acre tracts with a rover. I was on my way to doctors appointment or I would have stopped and asked them if they knew anything.
If there is another spike I can’t believe I missed it.
@drilldo I did not have a crew out there yesterday but I did all the surveying to split those 10 acre tracts out.
The bearings you measure with your RTK are relative to whatever projection grid you have your dc set to. They will differ from geodetic by an amount dictated by where you are relative to that grid system's central meridian. Values of up to +/- 2° are typical. So no worries there. What is more important is the angular relationships between lines. And keeping in mind that bearings quoted to 20" are probably not half that precise, that bearing bases determined by solar observation may be accurate to 30" to 60", and that in a lot of case those bases were determined by no more than a hand compass.
If I was to survey your property I would not just look at your deed. I'd be looking at your adjoiner's deeds as well, to see if the dimensions and calls were compatible. If they are not we would have to get into deed histories / chain of title to determine who's rights were senior.
You have monuments called out, and those are generally golden. Distance discrepancies of a few feet in rural land is not usually cause for great alarm. Especially if they were first measured in an era where the steel tape was the measuring device du jour.
BTW - your RTK device can be set to read out bearing in degrees-minutes-seconds - like your deed calls - instead of decimal degrees.
Finally, it is possible that you have a grid projection system set in your dc that is not appropriate for the area you are working in. In that case, scale factors may be being applied that yield wild discrepancies between measured distances and the true ground distances. Can you tell us what part of the world you are in and what zone your dc is set to?
I went and searched and sure enough it was there. The recently put a new coat on the road and the correct spike was covered up but the one I found had been chipped out so it must have duped someone else. I chipped out the correct one and painted around it.?ÿ
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The one I found originally is closer to the middle of the road though.?ÿ
I haven??t set up my base yet to go take a new shot I am doing some welding in the shop but I will later today.?ÿ
Cyril if you are ever in the area stop by I owe you a beer!
Is this the greatest place on Earth, or what?????
One time I found a rebar 2 feet out of position in a lawn, no tag. The other monuments on the survey fit much better than that. Scratching my head then I thought go look where it should be. Sure enough find it with the tag. I have no idea who set the other rebar, maybe it was a stake for an old landscape header.
The bearings you measure with your RTK are relative to whatever projection grid you have your dc set to. They will differ from geodetic by an amount dictated by where you are relative to that grid system's central meridian. Values of up to +/- 2?ø are typical.?ÿ So no worries there. What is more important is the angular relationships between lines. And keeping in mind that bearings quoted to 20" are probably not half that precise, that bearing bases determined by solar observation may be accurate to 30" to 60", and that in a lot of case those bases were determined by no more than a hand compass.?ÿ
If I was to survey your property I would not just look at your deed. I'd be looking at your adjoiner's deeds as well, to see if the dimensions and calls were compatible.?ÿ ?ÿIf they are not we would have to get into deed histories / chain of title to determine who's rights were senior.?ÿ?ÿ
You have monuments called out, and those are generally golden. Distance discrepancies of a few feet in rural land is not usually cause for great alarm. Especially if they were first measured in an era where the steel tape was the measuring device du jour.?ÿ ?ÿ
BTW - your RTK device can be set to read out bearing in degrees-minutes-seconds - like your deed calls - instead of decimal degrees.?ÿ
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Finally, it is possible that you have a grid projection system set in your dc that is not appropriate for the area you are working in. In that case, scale factors may be being applied that yield wild discrepancies between measured distances and the true ground distances. Can you tell us what part of the world you are in and what zone your dc is set to??ÿ
Thanks. I am near Lubbock and I am surveying with Texas North Central SPC and NAD83. My data collector displays degrees and I was converting them to quadrant bearings in my head because I know that is what surveyors generally speak. I didn??t go to the trouble to convert the decimal degrees to degrees min sec because like you said the numeric value of the bearings isn??t that critical it is the relationship between them that matters. I was also calculating grid and not ground distances which over this distance and flat terrain likely doesn??t amount to much difference I don??t think.?ÿ
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