I have a Topcon PS-101A robotic total station. Sometimes I use the instrument in typical 1-man robotic mode with RC-PR5 controller mounted on prism pole, and on other jobs, I use it in more conventional 2-man setup, with me on the data collector at the instrument and my partner at the prism pole (without the RC-PR5). I've typically been using Carlson SurvCE 6.06, but also have a license of Topcon Magnet Field.
I'm having a very hard time acquiring lock prior to a shot, and the difficulty appears to be related to whether the prism is fixed or moving at the time. I believe the problem exists whether I'm using in robot or 2-man conventional modes, though I notice it more in the latter mode because I am at the instrument. The problem is especially frustrating on a shot where the prism cant be held fixed, say locating a fence behind a thick bush and having to "boot" the prism pole up over the bush. This is physically strenuous, and it is important to be able to acquire lock quickly, take the shot, and call out "good" to the rod man so he knows he can bring the pole down. Another tough situation might be taking a shot to a peanut prism where the rod man is on the ground, again in a strenuous position, and not able to hold the prism perfectly still for long. Add to that the simultaneous stress of bugs, etc. and it is nearly impossible.
I've made two short videos that illustrate the problem. The first video (<3 min) shows the problem generally:
A second video (<1 min) shows the behavior of instrument as viewed through scope.
I've been communicating with Carlson about this, thinking that the problem has something to do with Carlson's software. However, after some recent testing, I've seen that the problem exists using SurvCE but also when using Topcon's Magnet Field. So, I'm thinking the problem may fall in one of three categories:
- There is some fault in the Bluetooth communication which causes slow or interrupted data transfer (I doubt it)
- There is a user configurable setting in the instrument that isn't set optimally (I hope so)
- The problem is not user configurable, and reflects a limitation of the instrument itself (Please I hope not)
One work-around I have found is to turn the instrument to the backsight prism in between shots, ideally before it initiates the search, fails, and goes into standby. If I can maintain lock on the backsight prism up until the moment when the rod-man is ready with the next topo shot, then I can quickly turn from the backsight prism to the prism pole, and it will quickly acquire lock the moment the prism comes into the field of view of the telescope.
Years ago, I used a Sokkia SRX3 with a TDS Ranger data collector running Spectra Precision Survey Pro. This instrument setup, despite being many years older, worked great for topo - the gun quickly acquired lock any time the prism came into the field of view of the telescope. It didn't initiate a search pattern, it didn't go into standby mode, and was always ready to acquire lock. Really fast. In my mind the newer instrument should be even faster at this than the older instrument, yet in practice is it far worse.
I would appreciate any suggestions on this problem, especially from Topcon PS users.
Thanks,
Al
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I don't use Carlson so I can't help there. I do use the same instrument with Magnet Field. What version of Magnet Feild do you have? Also, MF has a lock and a search function. There are user-defined settings for the search window horizontal and vertical range, along with the time. Perhaps Carlson SW has changed these settings.
Wow, that's no good. Not the first person here to complain about the PS Instrument.
N10,000, E7,000, Z100.00
PLS - IL, MO, AR, KS, MN, KY
Lee, I wonder if you have a few moments whether you could try acquiring lock while deliberately moving the prism back and forth to see if you get the same behavior that I get. I have Magnet Field 6, build 1910111301, not sure it is the very latest issue, but was updated within the last year. I will check out the settings you are referring to. Also updated the firmware for the instrument last month.
The instruction manual for the Topcon Power Station includes chapter 10 which addresses target sighting.?ÿ It looks like I need to experiment with the settings mentioned in this chapter, particularly the "Auto-Aim" settings.?ÿ An excerpt from the instruction manual is linked below.
To be doing the local searching, the instrument should swing back and forth, up and down. That isn't happening. Do you perhaps have your search window set to zero?
I've written here of my travails with a PS-103A/TSC3 w/Survey Pro several times. Not a fan, mostly related to radio communication latency problems. But yours isn't working at all.?ÿ I have found the tracking to work much better at longer ranges (>200'). 12' really tough for that instrument.
I just set the instrument up to look at the Motor Configuration settings.?ÿ They are as follows:
CONFIG:
Auto Aim - Fine
Meas Acc. - Standard
Track Setting - Search
Srch Method - G.S.
Turn - 5"
SEARCH AREA:
Search Pattern - 1
Vert - 3 deg.
Horz - 3 deg.
JOG SETTING:
Lo - L3
Hi - H4
Shift - 2
AT SETTINGS:
Advanced Tracking: Off
Forecast Time: 2 sec.
Wait Time: 5 sec.
I think I know what you mean about the local searching.?ÿ I wish that it wouldn't do that, but rather just wait until the prism pops into the field of view.?ÿ As, when it begins the search pattern, if it doesn't find the prism, the routine will fail and the instrument will go into a standby mode.?ÿ Once in standby, I have to re-awaken the instrument, find the prism, etc.?ÿ But to answer your question directly, I have it set to search a small 3 deg window, so that it doesn't take so long.?ÿ It does work, but not shown in the video.?ÿ The behavior may be better if I set the search window to zero.?ÿ I'll do some experimenting.
I'm traveling today, so I have a short reply.
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The problem maybe be your short window. I use 15 degrees horiz and vertical, with 5 or 6 second delay. The 15 degree us the search area. The time is how long it wait before searching again.
To put your prism inside the viewing window at 12' range you would have to put it in a very specific small spot. And it's not going to find you by being close enough. The prism is going to have to be in the field of view.
Try resetting the Search/Track back to 15° with Magnet Field. The parameters you list above are internal settings, that Magnet Field does not allow user-definable. I think this is a problem. Carlson is changing settings that should NOT be user-definable. Also, suggest you talk with your Topcon dealer to get the settings correct. Carlson and Topcon don't play well in the same sandbox. Carlson is forced to reverse Engineer the protocols between software and hardware using a cross over cable. They often get this wrong.
I figured it out!!!! 😛 😛 😛 ?ÿ
I'm ecstatic.?ÿ Really, this is like grilled cheese with the cheese.?ÿ It was just dry bread before.
Two motor configuration settings within the instrument appear to be key to improving this experience:
The first setting, Under "Config" - the setting for "Auto Aim" was set to Fine.?ÿ As explained in section 10.1 of the instrument manual, changing this setting to Rapid allows for quicker auto pointing and to avoid the time out error that was shown in my video.?ÿ I'll have to check, but I believe this setting is not accessible through the SurvCE interface, but only through the display on the instrument.
Set to "Rapid" when supporting the pole by hand.?ÿ
When "Fine" is set the instrument checks that the prism position is stable, then searches for the prism direction. Once the instrument confirms that the prism is sighted at the approximate center of the field-of-view, Auto Pointing is complete. Although this setting provides greater accuracy, when supporting the pole by hand, hand movements will result in Auto Pointing taking too long to complete and a "Time out" error will occur.
When "Rapid" is set however, Auto Pointing can be performed even with slight instability of prism position or minor shifts of target position in the field-of-view. The instrument will use the data obtained to determine the direction of the target.
Auto Pointing performed using the "Rapid" setting can be completed in a much quicker time than the "Fine" setting.
"Fine" is recommended when a high level of measurement accuracy is needed.
What remains to be seen with respect to this first setting is whether there will be a loss in pointing accuracy as a result of keeping the instrument set to "Rapid".?ÿ But for now, this is a major improvement.
Secondly, and perhaps more important than the first, is the setting under "AT Settings" called "Wait time".?ÿ I had this set to 5 seconds, which is the factory default setting, and probably an appropriate setting for solo robotic operation.?ÿ Once the 5 seconds is over, the instrument initiates a search pattern, looking for the prism.?ÿ Consumes a huge amount of battery life.?ÿ The size and type of the search pattern is based on the number of degrees specified under the "search area" settings, and the pattern number.
?ÿWhat I didn't realize is that there is an option to set the Wait time to "hold" instead of a fixed number of seconds.?ÿ Which means that the instrument never starts the search pattern, it just waits for the prism to come into the field of view.?ÿ As explained in Chapter 11 of the manual:
Lost Prism
In the event that an obstacle prevents the instrument sighting the target during Auto Tracking, the instrument will predict the direction in which the target will travel and continue Auto Tracking based on this prediction for the time period set in "Forecast time". If the instrument re-acquires the target in this predicted direction, Auto Tracking continues without change. If the target is not re-acquired however, the target is considered "lost" ("Target lost" status) and the instrument starts "horizontal search", "Prism wait" and "re-search" in order. If the instrument re-acquires the target in this process , Auto Tracking continues.
"Prism wait" will continue for the time period set in "Wait time". If the target is not re-acquired after "research", sighting terminates. Start Auto Tracking procedure again from step 1. "Wait time" being set to "HOLD" (no limits), Auto Tracking procedure is as follows. The telescope does not move and keeps "Prism wait" status and when the prism comes into the field of view, the instrument starts Auto Tracking.
This is huge.?ÿ On an open site, or when taking shots along the open road, it is difficult but possible to keep the prism aimed at instrument between shots.?ÿ But, when the rod man is climbing his way through bush or over a stream, he can't worry about that.?ÿ And, it is also impractical for him to try to race to the next shot within 5 seconds.?ÿ With the setting on "hold" he can take his time.?ÿ All the instrument man has to do is aim the telescope in his general direction and whammo, it is locked.?ÿ Awesome.?ÿ I'm psyched about this improvement.?ÿ Thanks for all the help!
🙂 ?ÿ
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I'll check those settings on my instrument to see if it helps me.
Why are you not using a 360° prism? I tried using autotracking without a 360° (with another brand instrument) for about 2 weeks in 1997. That was more than enough. Never again.
Sometimes I will. But when using multiple tripods on a boundary survey, we have 30 mm prism’s mounted on back site and foresight. The Topcon 360 prism has a -7mm prism offset, and I don’t like mixing prisms on the same job.
let me know if the settings help you.
Does the collector software not remember prism constants? Usually once you have sighted a point and entered a prism type/offset on a particular setup, it should automatically switch if you tell the robot to check that point. I also would love to have a 360 prism with the same offset as all my other prisms, but working with the 360 is far easier than a single...
To be clear, I am primarily addressing instrument behavior when using conventional 2-man party, and the system I typically use includes use of three tripods - backsight, occupy, and foresight. If I'm running solo, I use a 360 prism all the time, as it is a big time saver.
As far as I know, Carlson SurvCE allows a global prism offset for backsights and a global prism offset for foresights. So, while the backsight can be set to -30mm and kept that way, the foresights are sometimes to a control point (set up with tripod, tribrach, AP41 adapter, and 30 mm prism) and sometimes to a topo shot (prism pole with prism). If I mount a 360 prism on the prism pole and a 30 mm prism on the foresight tripod, I would have to switch back and forth between the two prisms, and I'm afraid that I would botch it up. There is just too much opportunity for error. And, I don't see the advantage, as when working in 2-man fashion, the instrument man can simply point the telescope to the rod man, and lock is re-acquired automatically.
Previously, I used Survey Pro, and I believe it allowed for "smart targets" or something to that effect, where it would remember not only prism constants but heights as well on backsights and foresights. That is a feature that I wish Carlson might implement.
I think I know what you mean about the local searching...
That instrument does a local search thing, where it swings back and forth, up and down, within a range looking for the glass. It also does a global search where it circles 360?ø in the horizontal looking for the RC-5 "dog whistle" unit that should be on the rod, then swings through a vertical plane looking for the glass. I use that function more than the local search.?ÿ I have found it to be more effective, even when I know the thing is sighted close to the glass. But it does require that the RC-5 be stacked up with the glass.?ÿ
Yes, but I think that your terminology is backwards. What Topcon refers to as a "global search" or "G.S." does not involve the RC unit. Rather, the Global Search is what you are calling a "local search", and what is referred to in the manual as "auto pointing". I actually think your terminology makes more sense than what Topcon calls it. But, bottom line, this is just a question of terminology.
If I'm operating solo in robot mode, I use the RC to call the instrument to the rod.
If I'm operating 2-man, now that I've made the changes described in this thread, I shouldn't need to invoke either of the search methods you mention. First of all, because I wouldn't have an R.C. unit on the prism pole, and secondly, because I can now simply point the telescope in the direction of the prism and it will automatically lock.