Bad representation of Land Surveyors

The survey

Unfortunately, such "survey" products are not all that uncommon - a few dozen topo shots, a little linework, and the geometry of the deed dimensions tenuosly placed over it all. I'd like to say, and used to be able to say that something like this almost always comes from an office where unlicensed field and CAD techs put it all together ostensibly under the direction of an RCE, but that's not such a safe bet anymore. Many poorly trained LSs often crank out the same type of crap.

The common excuses:

"The client only paid for a topo"

For what purpose? The surveyor should have known it was for design and that the design needed to stay within the limited confines of the parcel boundaries. It was up to the surveyor to advise the client that a boundary survey would be necessary, as Paul did.

"The client never paid the bill and that's just a preliminary plot"

Then why is it not clearly and prominently marked "Preliminary" as required by law?

"The client wouldn't pay for a boundary"

Then perhaps the surveyor, knowing that he was being asked to provide an incomplete product which would be used for a purpose that required a boundary delineation should have declined to take the project. But I also understand that, especially in tough economic times, passing up any work is difficult for most. If the surveyor had advised the client to have the boundary performed and the client declined to do so, and the surveyor decided to proceed anyway in order to secure some income, at the very least the map issued should have contained prominent notes stating the unverified nature of the boundary and the possible implications of reliance upon it. Or better yet, showed no boundary at all, but only the topo information.

"The client didn't need a boundary"

Yes, it's true. Even some surveyors are that myopic as to the end use of their data.

"With all the improvements there, why waste time and money on a boundary, just fit the design between the buildings"

Yes, this is also true. There are some surveyors practicing who are this negligent and/or incompetent.

"That was intended only to be base info for a design drawing and was never intended to be a map"

So? The data is still incomplete for it's intended purpose. The fact that it was never intended to leave the computer separate from being base info on a plan sheet, or that you are just providing it to an engineer or contractor who doesn't know quite enough to tell good data from bad is no reason to provide data which represents about half the effort of a competently performed survey.

Kudos, Paul on picking up the cleanup work and advising the client of all that is necessary for a proper survey base.

Bad representation of Land Surveyors - Clearcut

You don't have direct knowledge of the the perpetrator, but your client should. Farhad was also the CE's client wasn't he? If so, with that direct knowledge, he could take it either to the PPC or the Board without further proof that the CE was the one who did the survey and produced the plot.

The survey - Mark

> > He knows now Carl. He said he paid about 2 grand for that POS in 2003
>
> Before I pass judgement I'd like to know how much calling around for the lowest cost Farhad did in 2003.

Farhad told me that he has been using the guy because he is always the low bidder and undercuts everyone.

Bad representation of Land Surveyors - Jack

> Paul,
>
> Do you need a signature to file on this guy?

Yes.

>You have a client that has told you something about him, why not pursue it from that angle?

I told Farhad he can file a complaint but he does not want to do that.

> Of course, there may be a second side to the story. Maybe it's not a boundary survey, but just a topo and planimetric. Maybe his seal was cut off when the reproduction was done. Maybe it is just a preliminary exhibit.

It's not preliminary. The PDF was an attachment from an email to Ferhad who forwarded it to me.

--- On Thu, 5/12/11, Hank ******* wrote:

Regards,
***** | *****

The survey - Mark

> Farhad told me that he has been using the guy because he is always the low bidder and undercuts everyone.

Oregon has a limitation for action of 2 years after discovery up to a maximum of 10 years after completion of the survey work. I don't know about Cali but I'd guess the board would be less than enthusiastic about an 8 year old map. It does appear pretty substandard. The client also has his part in it. People know when they are cutting corners.

Glad to hear that at least one inspector is on the job.

The survey - Mark

California has no limitation on when the Board of Registration may take action. Our licenses are subject to board action for events performed back to the date of licensure.

California does have a limitation on civil action in certain cases as far as being sued.

Bad representation of Land Surveyors - Jack

Paul,
You have plenty of proof to get the BOR or PPC to investigate, and to find the guy guilty. You have the map and the email. Those alone prove guilt. Farhad will likely be called as a witness if the guy doesn't admit that was his work. However, Farhad does not have to be the one to file the complaint.

You have discovered this practice which does and has harmed the public. You, Paul, are accountable for putting a stop to this. You have testimony that this guy is undercutting everyone and proof that he accomplishes it by not performing the job to the degree the law requires.

I have read many of your posts here Paul, and you certainly perform to the high standard we should all pursue.

However, if you don't want take action to stop substandard practice you are acutely aware of, then you really have no room to complain about such practice. By allowing it to continue, you are harming the profession and the public.

Bad representation of Land Surveyors - CC

> Paul,
> You have plenty of proof to get the BOR or PPC to investigate,

Sorry, but I have to disagree with that. I have a forwarded email addressed to someone else and a map with no identifying features. If you want to go out on a legal limb with that flimsy evidence, go for it. I will not.

I have every right to complain on sub standard work. I do not need to perform an action that will satisfy you or others to do so.

However, I would like to see Ric Moores opinion on this and also David Hobbs. They can judge this evidence much better than I can since they deal with these situations on a daily basis.

Bad representation of Land Surveyors - CC

I guess we agree to disagree.

I'm really only on my high horse right now simply because I've come across way too many surveyors who look the other way when it comes to other's substandard practice. As long as this continues, the less chance we have of ensuring our profession is just that, a profession.

Ric might not be as available as before now that he just got the Exec Director job.
Even so, go ahead and send it to him asking if there is sufficient evidence to warrant an investigation. Even if he is too involved with his new job, he should have someone filling the shoes of his liason job.

Do you have a PPC at your local CLSA chapter? Many do and its a great way to get consensus from a group of peers on issues like this.

.

.

Bad representation of Land Surveyors - CC

> Ric might not be as available as before now that he just got the Exec Director job.

Ric will chime in, he usually does. He may be very busy with his new position but he still reads this forum.

> Even so, go ahead and send it to him

I would contact PPC before getting Ric involved.

> Do you have a PPC at your local CLSA chapter?

David Hobbs heads PPC for the local chapter.

The survey - Mark

> Farhad told me that he has been using the guy because he is always the low bidder and undercuts everyone.

That doesn't excuse poor surveying, but I have considerably less sympathy for Farhad knowing this. He got what he paid for, and now he has to pay what he should have to start with (or more) to fix the mess he bought previously.

Education is expensive.

The survey

I guess we don't have that type of relief in Houston, that you have in Cali.
Those "TW" shots on the (rotated left for upright text on PDF) South and East boundary are hard to understand in comparison to adjacent shots.
The North neighbor's garage (rotated left for upright text on PDF) has a water valve in front of it ? ?
Water service valves here are generally located on the curb or alley. Maybe thats a service riser.

The survey

> Those "TW" shots on the (rotated left for upright text on PDF)

The TW (Top of wall) is just overkill info for a common screen wall.

> Water service valves here are generally located on the curb or alley. Maybe thats a service riser.

It probably is a riser.

Bad representation of Land Surveyors - Jack

Paul

Is the last name four letters ending in "G"

Bad representation of Land Surveyors - Dennis

> Paul
>
> Is the last name four letters ending in "G"

It sure does Dennis

Bad representation of Land Surveyors - Dennis

I am not surprised. It's a small world ain't it!

Bad representation of Land Surveyors - Dennis

> I am not surprised. It's a small world ain't it!

Yep, and bad work never goes unnoticed 😛