In the post below Sicilian cowboy writes: “ANYONE can survey his or her own property.....some states have this written into their regulating laws.” I have heard that said from time to time and it has never sat right with me. Granted, a farmer or rancher can carve out a site WITHIN his acreage to transfer land to a sibling, or friend, or even a complete stranger. Not a problem as I see it, it is all his property.
But it gets sticky in other cases because as soon as a landowner surveys his line, he is by default also surveying his neighbor’s line. Since every line has at least 2 owners, how can it be acceptable that a landowner can survey his neighbor’s line?I work primarily in the southeast corner of NY where almost all land is either a simultaneous conveyance created by a subdivision plat, or there are definite junior / senior title matters to consider.
Have I been missing something all these years? Enlighten me!
KS
Just because a landowner "surveys" his land and monuments it has absolutely nothing to do with a LEGAL, OFFICIAL LAND SURVEY that can be recorded. It only represents a layman's best guess, and is not even a SWAG.
When I get a headache, I take an aspirin. I do not have to get a prescription from a Physician.
The Farmer, etc. can't offer surveying services nor present themselves as a surveyor nor tell a grantee that they have surveyed the line.
They can grant a peice of property calling for the line, and even mark where they think it is. As long as they don't tell the grantee it has been "surveyed" or that they are a "surveyor" I think it is legal.
And even if they cross the line, so to speak, it may be many years before damages are realized. So, from a practical standpoint, many do "survey" their own conveyances without any repercussion.
Look on the bright side, more work for future surveyors to fix all those problems. As long as there is something in place to ensure that an actual surveyor can do a better job than the layman. And that last is being questioned on a national level.
An owner can survey all he or she chooses to do and it can become binding except for the exterior boundaries. From the days when units of land was typically larger than 5000 sq. ft..
jud
In Va. a landowner can survey his own property. It's legal. However, who will accept the survey. Not anyone I know of. Silly law when it comes up for a debate among us. Many laws are still on the books which should be exterminated.
There is a law on the books in Portsmouth Va which states "anyone in a motorized vehicle approaching an intersection must blow his horn for the approach of any horse drawn carriage" .....although antiquated.... it's still on the books. Blow your horn in Ptown and you just might get shot.
It is also understood as a PLS it's not a good idea to survey your own property for transfer.
ANYONE can survey his or her own property - GA
Per 43-15-29. Exceptions to operation of chapter
(c) This chapter shall not be construed as requiring registration for the purpose of practicing professional engineering or land surveying by an individual, firm, or corporation on property owned or leased by such individual, firm, or corporation unless the same involves the public safety or public health or for the performance of engineering which relates solely to the design or fabrication of manufactured products.
> In the post below Sicilian cowboy writes: “ANYONE can survey his or her own property.....some states have this written into their regulating laws.” I have heard that said from time to time and it has never sat right with me. Granted, a farmer or rancher can carve out a site WITHIN his acreage to transfer land to a sibling, or friend, or even a complete stranger. Not a problem as I see it, it is all his property.
>
> But it gets sticky in other cases because as soon as a landowner surveys his line, he is by default also surveying his neighbor’s line. Since every line has at least 2 owners, how can it be acceptable that a landowner can survey his neighbor’s line?I work primarily in the southeast corner of NY where almost all land is either a simultaneous conveyance created by a subdivision plat, or there are definite junior / senior title matters to consider.
>
> Have I been missing something all these years? Enlighten me!
>
> KS
Yes, landowners can survey their own land. Usually it doesn't involve a plat per se but field lines are laid out and if the neighbor agrees, voila! I had a situation just like that. I was asked to survey 10 acres surveyed by a couple of brothers for a land transaction. The land was deeded and all. A lawyer told them to use a land surveyor after the fact. I tried surveying based on their bearings and distances but they missed existing fences by minimum 20 feet. I called and asked what was the agreement? They said the fences, so I surveyed the fences and showed my measurements on the plat and their deeded measurements. I never changed the recorded deed. But later the lawyer asked if I changed the description and I said no, as their deed was filed. It was simply showing the two different measurements, my opinion and their opinion. Land surveys are defined by the monuments in the ground, not by the measurements on the plat.
But surveyors can't survey their own land, it's a conflict of interest. Land surveyors have special knowledge.
>
> But surveyors can't survey their own land, it's a conflict of interest. Land surveyors have special knowledge.
I never could understand that concept, it is simply an opinion like any other survey. We just discover fact and express our opinion in a public record.
Surveyors can survey their own land.
But, if it deviates from deed to the extent that it benefits you, it might be prudent to have another professional do it. To avoid the conflict of interest issue in case in ends up in court.
From Black's:
Alienation
In real property law, the transfer of the property and possession of lands, tenaments, or other things, from one person to another. The term is particularly applied to absolute conveyances of real property. The voluntary and complete transfer from one person to another. Disposition by will. Every mode of passing realty by the act of the party, as distinguished from passing it by the operation of law. See also Restraint on alienation.
Restraint on Alienation
A provision in an instrument of conveyance which prohibits the grantee from selling or transfering the property which is the subject of the conveyance. Most such restraints are unenforceable as against public policy and the law's policy of free alienability of land. See restrictive covenant.
The operative principle is: 'Every mode of passing realty by the act of the party, as distinguished from passing it by the operation of law.'
See also Chap 8 in Backman & Thomas's "A Practical Guide to Disputes Between Adjoining Landowners - Easements".
8.01 Introduction and Chapter Overview
Setting boundaries between adjoining properties is a commonly recurring problem. Care should be taken in the first instance to use an accurate description in all transactions involving real property. The first section of the chapter explores judicial doctrines of construction utilized in choosing between alternative possibilities of meaning of ambiguously stated property descriptions.
The record description of a property boundary is merely the first element in establishing the actual boundary line between properties. In order to establish the actual location of the boundary, property owners are regularly assisted by professional surveyors who scientifically determine the location on the ground.
Property surveys are the surest means of establishing an accurate boundary. Because they involve an additional expense in the conveyance of properties, however, many property owners disregard this measure of safety. As a conse¬quence, a number of doctrines have been established in order to give recognition
to boundaries which have been set by the acts of one or both of the adjoining property owners.1 In addition to adverse possession, considered in Chapter 7 supra, boundary disputes may also be settled through the application of three other judicial doctrines—boundary by agreement,2 boundary by acquiescence3 and boundary by estoppel.4 Under these three doctrines, adjoining owners may create a boundary that differs from the record description if that boundary has been established and recognized for a substantial period of time.
In these cases, established physical evidence is controlling, not a reasonable interpretation of the record description.
Richard Schaut
> But surveyors can't survey their own land, it's a conflict of interest. Land surveyors have special knowledge.
Well....alrighty then. I think I'll go out and survey all of my adjoiners property lines.;-)
Under these three doctrines, adjoining owners may create a boundary that differs from the record description if that boundary has been established and recognized for a substantial period of time.
As owners they may do so, but those owners must be aware of and in agreement that in doing so then there are steps to be taken to memorialize their agreement on a boundary that cannot be agreed to or located on the ground. If the record boundary can be located on the ground and it is in conflict with the record location then the owners can fight over the location and let the courts settle the location or exchange deeds so the record is in agreement with occupation. Surveyors don't own the land and therefor have no right to assume that title has passed by actions or inaction by the owners. Minor differences in record distances or angles that you would expect from the passing of time and the use of more precise instrumentation does not justify rewriting of deed descriptions, just show the record distance and bearing or angle along with measured. Use judgement when creating new deed descriptions and if you do, you need to look at the first document that created the tract and match it's intent. Surveying from the newest description has created many problems that often do not surface until years later.
jud
> >
> > But surveyors can't survey their own land, it's a conflict of interest. Land surveyors have special knowledge.
>
> I never could understand that concept, it is simply an opinion like any other survey. We just discover fact and express our opinion in a public record.
A land surveyor differs from a civilian property owner by the fact that a land surveyor has special knowledge about boundary lines. Pleading ignorance of this fact is not a valid excuse. It could be shown that the land surveyor did not locate the boundary lines in good faith because he has this special knowledge. A civilian land owner could plead ignorance and that they acted in good faith.
> > >
> > > But surveyors can't survey their own land, it's a conflict of interest. Land surveyors have special knowledge.
> >
> > I never could understand that concept, it is simply an opinion like any other survey. We just discover fact and express our opinion in a public record.
>
> It could be shown that the land surveyor did not locate the boundary lines in good faith because he has this special knowledge. A civilian land owner could plead ignorance and that they acted in good faith.
I'm lost. Is this just ethical gobbledy-goo, or are you basing this on an actual law / statute?
> > It could be shown that the land surveyor did not locate the boundary lines in good faith because he has this special knowledge. A civilian land owner could plead ignorance and that they acted in good faith.
>
> I'm lost. Is this just ethical gobbledy-goo, or are you basing this on an actual law / statute?
I am also lost on that comment. Sometimes I think we have surveyors posting as attorneys giving off the wall advice.
ANYONE can survey his or her own property Sorry jud, you are
> As owners they may do so, but those owners must be aware of and in agreement that in doing so then there are steps to be taken to memorialize their agreement on a boundary that cannot be agreed to or located on the ground.
What are you talking about with your: 'a boundary that cannot be agreed to or located on the ground.'? Are you really trying to say that physical evidence in existance on the ground 'cannot be agreed to or located on the ground'?
Also, when owners have established physical evidence on the ground of a boundary, who should be telling them they need to record an accurate description, replacing the defective description now on record if not the surveyor? For your information, neither owners, lawyers nor judges are qualified to accurately describe physical boundary locations.
There is no rational basis for the presumption that a record boundary must be preserved by surveyors, that is solely the responsibility of the owner!!
Surveyors have no obligation to 'follow in the footsteps' unless the owners have preserved the original boundary.
When the owners have established a legal boundary as recognized by the legal authority I quoted above, surveyors have no authority to disregard those legal boundaries.
Accurate land records are the sole responsibility of the surveying profession; remember my 'unanswerable question', "if not the surveyor, who?"? The answer is 'no one else but the surveyor can recognize errors in the record description, therefore the primary responsibility of a surveyor is to provide the one service that is beyond the ability of any other land law 'expert' here in the US and that is the ability to recognize errors in the record and provide the means to correct those records'.
Richard Schaut
Hi Richard
Have a good weekend.
jud
Well, I suppose if a surveyor were acting in an adversarial role that could apply. But most of us work in areas that it is assumed that the surveyor acts as a finder of fact, forms an opinion, and discloses it on a public record.
Sure, if there were "issues", it could appear that the opinion could be biased, but that seems to be stretching it a bit.
Yes, there are times I work as an advocate, but that is rare.
So, True Corner, who the heck are you and where are you at? I don't want to call you a Troll but it does come to mind.
Peter
