Landed on my desk when I made it back to the office this morning. It's for a little bit of a job, the paperwork must be 20-30 pages. They want this all done using certified payroll and prevailing wages. They even sent along a three page list of all prevailing categories. Nowhere on that list is anything remotely surveying related.
So I take it next door to the guy with his name on the first email, he gives me a weird look and asks why I have it. I tell him it was on my desk in my pile so I was going to deal with it. He says not too, it's already done. Already done? It's dated 8/2. Yep went out last week and did it. I ask if he did certified payroll, he just rolls his eyes and says NOOOO.
It's like they just throw stuff at a wall to see what sticks.
WE are professionals, not labor workers...??..I once asked an engineer what prevailing rate they used, he was so offended while insisting that I put it in my proposal.
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Welcome to the world of union certified jobs.?ÿ
The oddest happening I ever experienced on a union job was whilst going about my business surveying, a "Bridge Construction Laborer" dropped a pair of wire snips from the falsework above me and I grabbed it and threw it back up to him.?ÿ He caught it, then somewhat startled immediately dropped it back to the ground.?ÿ All work stopped on-site (half a dozen people or so) and the shop steward approached me and told me to never ever touch a laborer's tools or there'ed be trouble, formal or informal.?ÿ The laborer then walked to the end of the bridge down the ladder and over to his snips, picked it up and and work resumed.?ÿ Kinda silly if you ask me.
Au contraire my friend.?ÿ In the construction industry there's strong union control of surveyors in some regions.?ÿ Behold:
Welcome to the world of union certified jobs.?ÿ
...Kinda silly if you ask me.
That's the way it works on union sites.?ÿ
The company I worked for back in the '80s contracted all the staking on a high-rise structure.?ÿ After several meetings with all the union BAs it was decided it was OK for non-union surveyors to work on the site as long as we had a project management inspector with us.?ÿ Sounded silly, but OK...we were hourly.?ÿ
One day the superintendent wanted concrete nails set every-so-often in plywood forms to establish the finished concrete elevation.?ÿ You guessed it...we had to?ÿwait 4 hours for the Carpenter's Local 329 to send out someone from the hall to drive the nails for us.?ÿ I remember delivery trucks carrying materials had to park outside the site and get Teamsters from the hall to drive the trucks onto the site.?ÿ I also discovered the concrete redi-mix drivers were already Teamsters.?ÿ
Like I said it didn't matter to me as we were punching a clock also.?ÿ
Welcome to the world of union certified jobs.?ÿ
The oddest happening I ever experienced on a union job was whilst going about my business surveying, a "Bridge Construction Laborer" dropped a pair of wire snips from the falsework above me and I grabbed it and threw it back up to him.?ÿ He caught it, then somewhat startled immediately dropped it back to the ground.?ÿ All work stopped on-site (half a dozen people or so) and the shop steward approached me and told me to never ever touch a laborer's tools or there'ed be trouble, formal or informal.?ÿ The laborer then walked to the end of the bridge down the ladder and over to his snips, picked it up and and work resumed.?ÿ Kinda silly if you ask me.
On a paper mill construction site I had a shack where we kept our equipment and ate our lunch.?ÿ The windows had no glass in them, just plywood flaps that were hinged at the top.?ÿ?ÿ The flaps did not fit tight and the cold north wind (off the Tennessee River) would blow through and kept the shack cold.?ÿ I put a few 16d nails at the bottoms to keep them closed.?ÿ The next day I was called to the office and told I had a complaint filed against me for "doing carpenter's work".
Andy
I was an instrument man on a high rise job and this wire tying rebar monkey yelled at me to get out of his way so he could work. I lowered my sunglasses to insure I made direct eye contact and said, "If My chief and I don't set the points you're using to locate the columns you're getting ready to form up and pour later, you'll just have to find work some where else."
He murmured something and got out of my way, and I said "Thank you, Have a nice Day!"
yeah.?ÿ I loved construction layout so much I removed myself from a hiring pool that paid north of 80k.?ÿ Whomever likes it can have it.
I worked alongside labor union guys on Papermill projects.
We surveyors were the only non labor employees onsite.
We could not use nails, period.
We could not put any nail, tac, string or most anything else on a board.
We could make a hole with a plumb bob or?ÿuse a paint stick to make a target and use a #2 pencil to make a cross for line and grade.
When we would create a baseline, we would place a 4ft x 4ft target painted like a gammon reel target at each end.?ÿWe had to submit a plan and request a carpenter to cutout the target and to have a painter to paint the target. We had to submit a request order and coordinate a time for a laborer to dig the hole and set the posts in place and have a carpenter to erect a frame and nail our target to the frame.
0.02
This proposal wasn't even for a construction site. It is all preconstruction. It seems that the silliness expands itself like a virus.
If anyone is unsure about what the Federal Dept of Labor position on DB and surveying, you should give this 9 page "Q&As Regarding Workers Who Perform Work Activities Involved in Surveying" a read:
https://www.dol.gov/whd/govcontracts/DB-QAs.pdf
Remember though - regardless of what the DOL states about it - if the contract you signed says that you have to pay DB then you have to pay DB.
This isn't a DB job, those I reject out of hand when they start with the DB rules. So far the DOT has been kind about surveyors coming under the rules, however, it's been a few years since I've even looked at a DOT construction job, maybe that has changed.
There are other prevailing wage jobs that aren't federal.
For surveying services, DOT usually hires the lowest bidder, period.
Every other contractor related service must adhere to the DB rules.
WE are professionals, not labor workers...??..I once asked an engineer what prevailing rate they used, he was so offended while insisting that I put it in my proposal.
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You can stand on your soapbox if you like. Prevailing wages are a big bonus for me, and I'm a PLS with 30 years in the business. Sure, you have to do certified payroll. Set your rates high enough to cover the trouble.
The part that bugs is that office support isn't included under the prevailing wage umbrella. So the PLS in responsible charge back at the office is making less than the rodman on site.?ÿ But this is why God made laptops.?ÿ?ÿ
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https://wdol.gov/aam/aam212.pdf
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Check this out. We do fall under DB on staking jobs. There are 3 criteria we need to meet:
1.?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿEmployed by a contractor or subcontractor on the construction contract?
2.?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿEmployed immediately prior to or during construction (not during the design phase)?
3.?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿWorking in direct support of the construction crew on the site of the work?
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There is not many Federal Wage surveys for construction site surveyors yet so you need to fill out a SF1444
https://www.gsa.gov/forms-library/request-authorization-additional-classification-and-rate
Unfortunately this cannot be done prior to the job being awarded. Usually takes about 30 days after award!
...I'm a PLS with 30 years in the business. Sure, you have to do certified payroll. Set your rates high enough to cover the trouble.
The part that bugs is that office support isn't included under the prevailing wage umbrella. So the PLS in responsible charge back at the office is making less than the rodman on site.?ÿ But this is why God made laptops.?ÿ?ÿ
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Yeah "Set your rates high enough to cover the trouble." whether or not you are on a DB job.
Despite everyone's concerns, I suspect that in most markets, there are enough clients who understand that the price paid for these services is MUCH less important than getting what they need when they need it. Unless you are focused on the residential market, the cost of poorly executed surveys or late delivery is much greater than the price of the survey.
Give everyone a raise and move your rates up - then do it again next January 1. IF you lose any clients, I'll bet that they'll be the ones that are most difficult to work with.
If you are stuck in a market where you have to bid work - keep bidding it so that you win but write an optimistically appropriate but tight scope - if they want a low number they can have one but I'm going to quantify everything (number of trips to the job site, number of hours of research, number of hours in pre-field comps, number of existing corners in their block, everything!) -a hard price gets a hard scope! Tell them immediately when the effort is out of sync with the bid. Point out what your assumption was in your proposal, what found conditions are and why they are that way. No reasonable person expects you to take on an indeterminate quantity of work for a fixed price. Change orders will be based on your published rates - Clients will understand your time has value and if you do good work, you'll gain respect - They'll be more careful to preserve your stakes - They'll think more critically about what they want you to do - There is long-term value in all of that.?ÿ Don't burn them - just be a professional.
Be brave - Try it, you'll like it!
WE are professionals, not labor workers...??..I once asked an engineer what prevailing rate they used, he was so offended while insisting that I put it in my proposal.
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You can stand on your soapbox if you like. Prevailing wages are a big bonus for me, and I'm a PLS with 30 years in the business. Sure, you have to do certified payroll. Set your rates high enough to cover the trouble.
The part that bugs is that office support isn't included under the prevailing wage umbrella. So the PLS in responsible charge back at the office is making less than the rodman on site.?ÿ But this is why God made laptops.?ÿ?ÿ
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I'm glad the DB jobs work out for you, there is clearly a business model out there to do them. Last two prevailing wage jobs I bid (not DB) I came sorta close on one, the other one I was way over.
I will put?ÿextra time for me to do the payroll which is a big number, I put in time for me to recover my bid, and I put in money (20%) to recover the 10% holdbacks up front. I find those the most annoying part. After all I'm not a bank and at least a bank gets to charge interest. I sent out monthly statements for two years on one a few years ago, had endless meetings with the company, what a mess. I've always wondered what happens when the construction company goes out of business in the middle of all that, the building has been built and being used for a year, the construction company owner dies or retires and closes.
Much prefer to work the private sector and send a normal bill out and get paid a few weeks later. Frankly, we've been doing so much construction staking that it seems like 1/2 our work lately.