I've been going round and round with a client who wants a long-form certificate on an ALTA survey. I've pointed out the problems with terms like "true and correct," "all easements," "all zoning requirements," etc., but she keeps coming back asking why I won't sign it. Her latest effort at resolving this was an email asking if putting the ALTA cert on the map and providing the long-form cert as a separate document was an approach acceptable to me. My response, verbatim:
It is not. The "off-map" long-form certificate is merely a ruse designed to circumvent the ALTA requirement. The liability issues remain the same.
I'm afraid your choices are limited to convincing your lenders and/or attorneys to accept the ALTA certificate, or finding another surveyor. But I have a question should you choose the latter route: when you get another surveyor to sign the long-form cert, and a major claim for damages against him arises, and his insurer denies the claim, and he files for bankruptcy, how much protection did that long-form cert provide you?
Good luck with the project. Please let me know if there's anything more you need from me.
Thanks!
I expect to lose the client in the end, as it's pretty easy to find someone to sign the long form. It's a pity, but at least I'll sleep well.
I am new at this end of the business, but I am glad I read your post. I will remember this for the future. What is your thought on changing the date on an ALTA that was signed and sealed back in October. Now they want to change the map to depict a right of way (this is for a proposed shopping center) dedication they are doing at closing. I want to change the date and charge them more money to make this change? Any thoughts? I hope that made sense, so please feel free to ask questions (except for my client's name). Thanks!
A. If you lose this client you will also lose a lot of headaches. Good riddance may be the best policy.
B. That's why my proposal letter spells out in plain English that I will use the 2011 ALTA standards and the mandatory certification, period.
Same client? Did they pay the correct value the first time? Will you at least visit the site and verify changes?
Charge forward.
> I am new at this end of the business, but I am glad I read your post. I will remember this for the future. What is your thought on changing the date on an ALTA that was signed and sealed back in October. Now they want to change the map to depict a right of way (this is for a proposed shopping center) dedication they are doing at closing. I want to change the date and charge them more money to make this change? Any thoughts? I hope that made sense, so please feel free to ask questions (except for my client's name). Thanks!
Client..."I want a change to the map"...
Me...the map?...what map?...
Client...yes...the map from back in October...
Me...October?...from XYZ surveying?
Client...yes...sealed by X of XYZ...
Me...Oh...X retired in December...but the plat is filed online via the State GIS...you could download a copyright copy there...
Client...I know...I always do that...why pay again when you can get a 'certified copy' for free...I'm needing an UPDATE...a new CERTIFICATION...
Me...you need a new certification?
Client...Yes...just update the lenders, etc, and of course the DATE...send 12 copies to the following....
Me...wait...I've got to get a pen...who did you say you were???
Client...I'm Ms. Checklist...working for Mr. Megabucks...WE NEED A SURVEY...
Me...October you say?...
Client...HURRY...
Me...Let me check the archives...October...Surveyor X...hummm
Client...AND???
Me...I can have Mr. Y certify the survey on the next following tuesday week...for $xxxxxx...will that work for you?
Client...$xxxxxx?...we are just needing a new date...how hard is that?
Me...If you are in a hurry I can ask Mr. Z...
Client...PLEASE...I need to get this box checked...sigh
Me...OK...Mr. Z says he can redo the survey...on the ground...certify your changes...update the certificate...and retire to Bermuda...and have you the plat by close of business TODAY...for only $10,560,000...cash or credit card...
Client...OK...if that is the way it is...
> B. That's why my proposal letter spells out in plain English that I will use the 2011 ALTA standards and the mandatory certification, period.
I did that, the contract was explicit in that regard. The first iteration of the ALTA went without a hitch last March. Now they're changing lenders, and the "requirements" have changed accordingly. They want an update with the long-form cert, but they won't be getting it from me.
> Now they want to change the map to depict a right of way (this is for a proposed shopping center) dedication they are doing at closing. I want to change the date and charge them more money to make this change? Any thoughts?
As long as the survey date doesn't change and isn't more than 6 months old, I wouldn't have a problem adding a proposed right-of-way. I'd charge a nominal fee, enough to cover the drafting, printing, packaging, billing and any administrative time spent opening and closing the job.
If they want the date brought current, then it's a site inspection, current title report review (I'll waive that if the old one is less than 6 months old), and any map changes necessitated by those activities.
:gammon: YES Jim Good !
We don't do longforms. Ever. This is why dad never did altas in the 90s. We do them now because we can hold to the cert proscribed. When they try to change the rules last minute to include something different time is generally on our side. Holding up closing isn't in anyone's interest and whoever is pushing for a long cert has to make a pretty good case to everyone else involved. It becomes a game of chicken against a guy with a contract for a specific product (the alta and its cert).
> I've been going round and round with a client who wants a long-form certificate on an ALTA survey. I've pointed out the problems with terms like "true and correct," "all easements," "all zoning requirements," etc., but she keeps coming back asking why I won't sign it. Her latest effort at resolving this was an email asking if putting the ALTA cert on the map and providing the long-form cert as a separate document was an approach acceptable to me. My response, verbatim:
>
> It is not. The "off-map" long-form certificate is merely a ruse designed to circumvent the ALTA requirement. The liability issues remain the same.
>
> I'm afraid your choices are limited to convincing your lenders and/or attorneys to accept the ALTA certificate, or finding another surveyor. But I have a question should you choose the latter route: when you get another surveyor to sign the long-form cert, and a major claim for damages against him arises, and his insurer denies the claim, and he files for bankruptcy, how much protection did that long-form cert provide you?
>
> Good luck with the project. Please let me know if there's anything more you need from me.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> I expect to lose the client in the end, as it's pretty easy to find someone to sign the long form. It's a pity, but at least I'll sleep well.
I haven't worked on many ALTA surveys, but what is "long-form certificate" on an ALTA survey? I only know about the certification that is stated in the ALTA standards.
The Bow Tie Surveyor
It is a long (hence the name) form of certification which asks us to certify to things we can't possibly know are true. For example: We have shown all underground utilities, all unrecorded easements, there are no zoning violations, etc.
To encapsulate what Bruce said, the long-form cert -- which exists in various forms -- is an exercise in transferring as much liability as possible from the lender/insurer/owner to the surveyor. The very same attorneys who insist on the long-form cert, were they working for the surveyor, would advise him not to sign it. It's a sucker play.
> To encapsulate what Bruce said, the long-form cert -- which exists in various forms -- is an exercise in transferring as much liability as possible from the lender/insurer/owner to the surveyor. The very same attorneys who insist on the long-form cert, were they working for the surveyor, would advise him not to sign it. It's a sucker play.
Ok. So agree to sign it as long as the title insurer is willing to sell you title insurance to cover all the statements you just made in your certification and add the cost of the insurance to the bill for your survey. That should work right? 😉
The Bow Tie Surveyor
haha. I like it.
One more thing on those "long form certificates" - I believe they're created like a bad chain email. Over the years, as it is passed around, a lawyer here or a lender there adds their own bit of wording to it until it becomes a legal size sheet of nothing but legalese. The only thing missing is the "if you sign this you'll have good luck for the rest of the day".
:good:
Update: I got a call today from the architect who recommended me for the project. He was asked to play middleman to see if I could be persuaded to sign the cert. He's a guy I've worked with on a number of projects over many years, and I explained to him why I can't sign. He understood, but thinks the client will probably look for another surveyor willing to use the long-form cert.
During the years I was in active practice I did between 400 and 500 ALTA surveys using Requirements from 1962 to 2005. Of course the 2011 prohibition on other certs was not in place, and lenders' certs appeared frequently. I found that what worked best was to get in direct contact with the lender's attorney and negotiate changes in the wording to eliminate liability traps.
I had a collection of standard explanations for why I couldn't certify to various phrases in the proposed certification, and another collection of standard replacement phrases.
It sometimes took two or three days of polite refusals before the middlemen realized I was not going to budge, and put me in touch with the attorneys. After that it usually took only a few hours.
The attorneys understood perfectly well what I was talking about, which the middlemen did not, and unlike the middlemen they had the ability to make changes in the certification language. Once they had OK'd the changes, everyone else was happy. I only remember two attorneys out of all those projects who refused to negotiate.
> Update: I got a call today from the architect who recommended me for the project. He was asked to play middleman to see if I could be persuaded to sign the cert. He's a guy I've worked with on a number of projects over many years, and I explained to him why I can't sign. He understood, but thinks the client will probably look for another surveyor willing to use the long-form cert.
Did you tell the architect to pass on a message?
"Beware of any surveyor foolish enough to use your certificate in violation of the ALTA standards and still call the survey an ALTA survey."B-)
