5400 Acres of Rugged

wow . . . that's 3 miles by 3 miles.

And 30 days?

And, all for about $18k?

congrats on losing!

i love to watch lowballers work themselves out of business. 😉

Wow. Sight unseen I come up with just over $30,000.00.

:good:
good post randy.
reply with a 20% increase of your previous cost because of the alta standards and process and state that you want a 60 day deliverable date.

It stated that since I was the second low bidder, if I could beat the low bid on this job then it would be mine

Whoever ordered this survey is probably not feeling real good about hiring the lowest "bidder", either, that is why they are giving you a second shot at it.

Just curious, what's the value of this land?

Interesting dilemma. You know the client is not going to receive what they think they are going to get for the dollars they think they will spend. On the other hand, the handwriting on the wall makes it clear the client doesn't really understand what they are asking to have done.

If I was hungry for work I would probably reassess what it would really take based on the new information then contact the potential client to discuss what you would be willing to do for them and at what price. The contact has probably already determined that the low bid must not be a reasonable number. You might very well do a lot of people a lot of good by making a move to show the client how concerned you are on their behalf. The most you have to lose is a little more time.

They don't work themselves out of business

They work themselves into a revolving door of less quality equipment, less quality work, a miniscule lifestyle and poorly paid employees that have no allegence(sp), to the business.

They're rarely involved with their licensed associates, often don't believe in continuing education, often don't believe in insurance and if their smart, don't want to share their information.

Basically . . . they muddle through . . . barely . . .

They don't work themselves out of business

you're probably right.

in that case, they may be wishing they were out of business instead of sucking mud to stay alive.

We've all been in those kind of situations before I suppose. It sucks when it's the kind of projects you'd really really like because they sound fun or interesting or something you're really good at and some goofy lawyer or title co or lender makes it impossible.

5400 Acres of Rugged and an ALTA?

5400 Acres? And an ALTA? Why would they want an ALTA for that?

I'm doing a boundary for a large acreage and the buyer requested that it be done as an ALTA, after talking it out with them they decided that they really didn't need one. I wasn't even sure what needed to be included for an ALTA on a parcel that size.

It was just something their title people always requested.

Think about all the ALTA information that would need to be done for a small ranch like that. From reservoirs, ponds, springs, water wells, windmills and in Texas maybe oil and gas wells (they don't show up in the ALTA standards but the pipelines do) and in my area water rights including ditches, pipes, pivots and we haven't even gotten to the topo or location of streams and rivers that cross the property. In my case there were possibly a dozen old homesteads and the buildings associated with them, two landing strips, I suppose all the items except the boundary and easements could be excluded, then you don't really have an ALTA.

5400 Acres, $18,000, an actual ALTA. Yeah that's not going to happen.

> Texas Hill Country. I proposed on this job a couple of months ago and received an agreement letter via email yesterday. Yep I did say 5400 acres.

> Things I did not know when proposing were it was to be an ALTA, it was due by March 1st, proof of Liability and errors and omissions insurance, price to include all tax, prints and delivery fees and all items requested by buyer, etc., etc., and I was told that I had 30 days from a signed contract to complete.

That's absolutely insane. That ranch is without a doubt an aggregate of various original land grants and part of the survey necessarily involves examining the grants individually to verify the non-existence of vacancies. Sometimes this can be done just from GLO records, but as a rule not, since in the Hill Country usually the grants were surveyed off over time as the best tracts on water were located first and the scruffy arid uplands were last to go. Work on the ground is usually necessary.

Congratulations on firing that client and his or her pack of idiot attorneys.

What Is The Process To Claim A Vacancy?

Is it in fact claimable?

I know a vacancy can be acquired in PA, since I worked on and have a Patent in my files for my father's 3.5 acres. My father did it just to prove it could be done.

Paul in PA

What Is The Process To Claim A Vacancy?

> Is it in fact claimable?

Sure, in Texas you can apply to purchase unsurveyed public land aka a "vacancy" from the State. It's a very long, expensive process that can easily cost more than the land is worth just to complete the surveys necessary to prove up the existence and location of the vacancy to the satisfaction of the Commissioner of the General Land Office. It typically takes years and pounds of paperwork from application to issuance of patent.

The main reason to investigate the existence of vacancies is that when a tract is being bought for future development, scraps of State land within the tract can really throw a monkey wrench into what might otherwise be a pretty scheme for subdivision. From a surveying standpoint, it can be a high liability item for the surveyor whose work fails to disclose the vacancy.

I'm aware of at least one case where a large tract was purchased using a survey that reflected the existence of a vacancy of a certain size and extent upon the tract. When a more complete survey showed the vacancy to be larger and more extensive, a claim was made on the title policy and the title insurer's attorneys went after the surveyor whose work had been used in the transaction and in the issuance of the policy.

Like I've always said...

I never lost a penny on a job I didn't get.

You say that all of the requirements were not provided for the original proposal. If that was also true for what the low bidder was given to prepare his proposed, I would that would be enough for him to legally withdraw his proposal and walk. Maybe he was not a low life and was proposing the cost to set a corner at each corner of a square 3 mile tract. Now is it ethical or a justified courtesy to give him a call to inform him of your latest correspondence and discovery? I think I would, were it me.
jud

$10 Million +

> Just curious, what's the value of this land?

In the area around where Randy is, I'd guess those 5400 acres would be worth between ten and twenty mil depending up what sort of water crosses the tract. The value is for eventual development, most likely, definitely not in any feasible agricultural use.

The number of attorneys involved suggests that maybe the Nature Conservancy is involved in the transaction somehow. They've been particularly bad about using El Cheapo Malo surveys in many of their dealings.

An ALTA should be more. Much more.
Further, your deadline should be based on when they get you the title abstract - the complete title abstract.

We sent a proposal for a subdivision with our typical $5k per lot. That's for concept through permitting. The competing firm (who is notorious for low bids with change work orders) proposed $5k for the whole thing.

We advised the client to get an iron-clad proposal from the other firm. He did not. He returned when they had CWOd the project up to about $7 or $8k per lot. "How much will it be to finish their work?"

$5k per lot.

I wouldn't have a problem with it...If I had already performed a boundary survey!!

Pablo B-)

5400 Acres??

I'll pass.