What are your thoughts on advocacy for your client? I know some surveyors who will advocate for their clients. I know some surveyors who have gotten my former clients because I will not be their advocates but the other surveyor will.
I know I've had issues with several attorneys, most recently Friday afternoon. Funny when the attorney threatens to fire you on this issue... then says "You cannot produce a plan that could harm your client!" Well buddy, if the facts harm the client and I must produce a plan that reports the facts then I must produce a plant that harms the client. Not a direct correlation, a conditional one.
There's Professionalism and then there's Prostitution ...
Some of my consulting jobs as an Expert Witness don't last longer than 20 minutes when the Attorney finds out my initial opinion after I discover the facts of the case.
Advocacy in Land Use issues is fine... in boundary matters, no... IMHO
With regard to boundary location matters, your first obligation is to the public, and advocacy on behalf of your client's interest doesn't enter into the equation. With regard to development projects, there are scenarios in which advocacy on behalf of your client would be ethically acceptable. However, keeping the line between those two concepts clear and bright in the eye of the public is hard to do if you engage in both. For that reason, I stay away from any roles that cast me as a project proponent.
Advocate ONLY
When there is enough doubt or lack of evidence to locate a property line in it's "true" location. I have, in the past, come across situations where deeds, plats, and other evidence leave doubts. I have sat down with the two owners and come up with a solution that both can accept. That is my idea of advocacy anyway. They could have gone to court, spent a lot of money, and one of them would probably end up feeling taken advantage of.
Andy
Advocate ONLY
Maybe you were acting more the part of a mediator than an advocate.
:good: I agree.
What exactly does it mean to be an advocate?
I looked up the definition in a Pocket edition of Blacks Law Dictionary.
"n. A person who assists, defends, pleads, or prosecutes for another."
By that definition I am an advocate for all my clients.
Of course, that does not mean I ask them where they think a property line is located then argue that they are correct. Far from it.
I tell my clients that when it comes to land surveying everyone is better off if we stick to demonstrable facts as the basis for what we do. Only rarely have I found cases where there was so little weight of evidence pointing to a conclusion that the wishes of the client made any difference whatsoever. Have seen many cases where so called professionals acted as a parrot for the wishes of the client. So far, very few of them turned out well for the client.
Clients hearing what they want to hear on the front end can get very expensive on the back end.
Larry P
> What exactly does it mean to be an advocate?
>
> I looked up the definition in a Pocket edition of Blacks Law Dictionary.
>
> "n. A person who assists, defends, pleads, or prosecutes for another."
>
> By that definition I am an advocate for all my clients.
>
I can't agree with that part (although your whole point is well taken). Your position is that of an expert whether your results benefit the client, or if they are a detriment. I don't think you are "assisting, defending, pleading, nor prosecuting" on behalf of your client in your capacity as a land surveyor. (Oh sure, you might like him/her as a person, and you might be on their side, but once you tell a court that you are advocating for the client, you might be compromising your expert opinion).
Larry,
I think you may be advocating for your boundary which isn't necessarily the same thing as advocating for your client.
Perhaps some clarification is in order.
I always strive to assist my clients. Sometimes that assistance falls into the category of helping them better understand why I made the decisions I made. I try to explain as best I can the logic that went into each conclusion reached. Notice that no where do I say their wishes play any sort of significant role in the conclusions.
In those rare cases where my clients need to seek legal advice, I defend the conclusions and help the attorney develop and plead an effective case. But again, this is only within the context of my otherwise independent conclusions.
Larry P
:good:
An incorrect plan that will not withstand a careful analysis of the facts by another competent professional or by the court that you client relies on would harm him (and others) far more than his just accepting the facts as they are, however inconvenient.
> Notice that no where do I say their wishes play any sort of significant role in the conclusions.
>
>
In our system, and in the legal sense, that is exactly what advocay is. I've heard the story from several attorneys that they learned quickly in law school that when the professor asks them to offer an opinion or position on the topic being discussed, that the students first correct response is to ask "Who am I representing?", unless they want to fully answer the question more than once.
I have never had a problem drawing up any plan to show a client's point of view.
It may not agree with deed or record information.
It man not agree with fences, usage or tree lines.
It is to show what the client is wanting or is what he understands that he owns or was shown that he owns.
The purpose of such a plan is to convey my client's understanding onto paper to present to others.
Advocate ONLY
Andy:
I am sure that 'Georgia Land Surveying History and Law' by
Faris Cadle is on your bookshelf. The early chapters give a
bunch of pitfalls on resolving boundary disputes. The last
seminar that Robillard gave for attorneys and land surveyors
advised no boundary resolution for land surveyors -- you can
get sued for coercion or advocating for your client or his
adjoiner.
> Advocacy in Land Use issues is fine... in boundary matters, no... IMHO
:good:
I have never had a problem drawing up any plan to show a client's point of view.
It may not agree with deed or record information.
It man not agree with fences, usage or tree lines.
It is to show what the client is wanting or is what he understands that he owns or was shown that he owns.
The purpose of such a plan is to convey my client's understanding onto paper to present to others.
What kind of disclaimer, if any, do you attach to your signed plat in such a situation?
I have what would appear to be a very simple survey project to do. I am friends with both the client and his adjoiner. My interpetation of historical documents will also impact two other properties. Truth be told, there are two equally plausible solutions. The difference is 30 feet across the entire width of the tract to be surveyed. In this case, I believe the best solution is to show both possibilities and let the neighbors decide how to proceed. I can't think of another similar case in over 25 years. In every other situation there has been one outstanding solution that carries adequate support to deny other solutions.
With more than 25 years at this, if you sincerely feel presenting both possibilities would be the right thing to do, it is the right thing to do.