paden cash, post: 440034, member: 20 wrote:
cer?útain
??s?rtn/
adjective
adjective: certain
- known for sure; established beyond doubt.
synonyms: unquestionable, sure, definite, beyond question, not in doubt, indubitable, undeniable, irrefutable, indisputable. (btw, the hyperbole is mine)
What's up with that? Did the evil Texans cross the river one night and steal all the other definitions of certain, or did you just pile them up outside the trailer and the big cyclone of '09 scattered them to the four winds? 😉
https://www.teachit.co.uk/attachments/12097/caxton-s-eggs-oed-certain.pdf
Oklahoma usage: "i'm absolutely certain that this PK Nail I found in the county road blacktop 29 ft., more or less from a power pole is in exactly the same position as the stone which I have never found or seen - or even met anyone who has - that Jethro Johnson set in 1873 to mark the section corner"
Kent McMillan, post: 440094, member: 3 wrote: Oklahoma usage: "i'm absolutely certain that this PK Nail I found in the county road blacktop 29 ft., more or less from a power pole is in exactly the same position as the stone which I have never found or seen - or even met anyone who has - that Jethro Johnson set in 1873 to mark the section corner"
There you go again butchering proper grammar.
ple?úo?únasm
??pl????naz?m/
noun
noun: pleonasm
- the use of more words than are necessary to convey meaning (e.g., see with one's eyes ), either as a fault of style or for emphasis.
paden cash, post: 440099, member: 20 wrote: There you go again butchering proper grammar.
ple?úo?únasm
??pl????naz?m/
noun
noun: pleonasm
- the use of more words than are necessary to convey meaning (e.g., see with one's eyes ), either as a fault of style or for emphasis.
Well, that is definitely a strange old world where any professional surveyor would let his 6th grade English teacher dictate his philosophy of land surveying practice. Is this fairly common in Oklahoma?
BTW, what I think you are vapor locking over are different common ways of expressing degrees of UNCERTAINTY.
Kent McMillan, post: 440102, member: 3 wrote: Well, that is definitely a strange old world where any professional surveyor would let his 6th grade English teacher dictate his philosophy of land surveying practice. Is this fairly common in Oklahoma?
BTW, what I think you are vapor locking over are different common ways of expressing degrees of UNCERTAINTY.
I just want to needle you with picky snippets that are unrelated to the topic at hand, that's all. Changing the subject with critique seems to be one of your common tactics. 😉
And btw, pointing out obvious errors in your usage of grammar isn't necessarily 'vapor locking'. Vapor locking would be more along the lines of picking back up a silly volley of idioms after a good night's sleep.
I slept like a baby. 🙂
paden cash, post: 440107, member: 20 wrote: And btw, pointing out obvious errors in your usage of grammar isn't necessarily 'vapor locking'.
Well, I'm always interested to read that in Oklahoma land surveyors must be CERTAIN about what they report when outside the boundaries of that state, most professional surveyors recognize that most elements of a surveyor's opinion have some degree of UNCERTAINTY attached to them. UNCERTATIANTY is not necessarily a bar to forming a professional opinion as long as it is within some acceptable distance from CERTAINTY.
As for the usage of the term "vapor lock" that is what happens when the fuel changes from liquid to gaseous state while still in the supply line. I got the idea that if you were quoting your sixth grade English teacher on matters of surveying practice that the fuel was evaporating too quickly, possibly due to the heat.
Don't downplay the importance of one's early education. While 99.99999% of everything thrown at me during my mandatory public education was disposable, I did learn. Sitting across from Karen Keller in math class I learned that there are varying knits and thread count on sweaters.
Here's someone that has a good opinion of early education.
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2399046-all-i-really-need-to-know-i-learned-in-kindergarten
If your early education is what instructs your practice of surveying, I'm certainly not going to knock it. It may well be that is all that is truly required to survey above the Red River. However, it's worth noting that there is at least a century of modern thought on the subject of UNCERTAINTY that is commonly considered to provide the conceptual framework of most matters of measurement that surveyors report. If a person wishes to only base his work upon CERTAINTY as an absolute concept, he is ALMOST CERTAINLY going to vapor lock on the steep ascent.
Kent McMillan, post: 440122, member: 3 wrote: If your early education is what instructs your practice of surveying, I'm certainly not going to knock it. It may well be that is all that is truly required to survey above the Red River. However, it's worth noting that there is at least a century of modern thought on the subject of UNCERTAINTY that is commonly considered to provide the conceptual framework of most matters of measurement that surveyors report. If a person wishes to only base his work upon CERTAINTY as an absolute concept, he is ALMOST CERTAINLY going to vapor lock on the steep ascent.
Precisely!
Tom Adams, post: 440126, member: 7285 wrote: Precisely!
And here I'd always been led to believe that there were only two degrees of certainty important to Austin surveyors. The first of course, is "reasonable uncertainty". Without this, no reasonable surveyor would be able to use Star*Net. As everyone here knows, in order for Star*Net results to be of nominal value to the land surveyor, the uncertainties MUST be reasonable. The second is that the experienced and skilled surveyor (also they MUST be imbued with special knowledge) must be certain that his/her decisions are based on a preponderance of the evidence.
Kent McMillan, post: 440114, member: 3 wrote:
UNCERTATIANTYis not necessarily a bar to forming a professional opinion as long as it is within someacceptabledistance from CERTAINTY.
Make those "uncertainty" and "reasonable".
paden cash, post: 440041, member: 20 wrote: You certain about that? 😉
I think the more appropriate test is along the lines of what a "prudent man" would do...[SARCASM]er, I mean prudent land surveyor.[/SARCASM]
Gene Kooper, post: 440153, member: 9850 wrote: And here I'd always been led to believe that there were only two degrees of certainty important to
Austinsurveyors. The first of course, is "reasonable uncertainty". Without this, no reasonable surveyor would be able to use Star*Net. As everyone here knows, in order for Star*Net results to be of nominal value to the land surveyor, the uncertainties MUST be reasonable. The second is that the experienced and skilled surveyor (also they MUST be imbued with special knowledge) must be certain that his/her decisions are based on a preponderance of the evidence.
I'm sure that is meant to be clever, but land surveyors develop professional opinions every day based upon a necessarily incomplete knowledge of all of the facts. The public record is usually incomplete, to begin with. Some surveyor in the remote past may have given an account of his work that was less than perfectly candid about what was actually done or not done, for example. That record and some of the physical evidence may be open to alternate interpretations. The passage of time may have simply erased many of the original surveyors footsteps and even the testimony of landowners may be completely uninformative regarding any event prior to their own purchase (or often after it).
So, pretty much all land surveying opinions are developed within an environment with many uncertainties of varying magnitudes that the surveyor must deal with to arrive at an opinion that he or she thinks is most consistent with such of the facts as he or she is able to gain knowledge of and, more importantly, that is most likely to withstand any challenge to its factual basis and merits. What that amounts to in practice is that the surveyor's opinion is a sort of narrative that it more convincing than any other narrative that may be constructed.
Fortunately, uncertainty is relative and as it reduces, the results trend toward certainty. This is true of survey measurements as much as opinions that are essentially explanations of complicated fact patterns.
The safety yellow painted rock must be of some significance.
😎
Kent McMillan, post: 440397, member: 3 wrote: I'm sure that is meant to be clever, but land surveyors develop professional opinions every day based upon a necessarily incomplete knowledge of all of the facts. The public record is usually incomplete, to begin with. Some surveyor in the remote past may have given an account of his work that was less than perfectly candid about what was actually done or not done, for example. That record and some of the physical evidence may be open to alternate interpretations. The passage of time may have simply erased many of the original surveyors footsteps and even the testimony of landowners may be completely uninformative regarding any event prior to their own purchase (or often after it).
So, pretty much all land surveying opinions are developed within an environment with many uncertainties of varying magnitudes that the surveyor must deal with to arrive at an opinion that he or she thinks is most consistent with such of the facts as he or she is able to gain knowledge of and, more importantly, that is most likely to withstand any challenge to its factual basis and merits. What that amounts to in practice is that the surveyor's opinion is a sort of narrative that it more convincing than any other narrative that may be constructed.
Fortunately, uncertainty is relative and as it reduces, the results trend toward certainty. This is true of survey measurements as much as opinions that are essentially explanations of complicated fact patterns.
Your use of the word certainty is another oddity. Why you insist on using it rather than the legal standards of substantial, preponderance, clear and convincing and beyond a reasonable doubt is baffling. The only thing I am sure of is that you are certain of your use of the word certainty.
Gene Kooper, post: 440444, member: 9850 wrote: Your use of the word certainty is another oddity. Why you insist on using it rather than the legal standards of substantial, preponderance, clear and convincing and beyond a reasonable doubt is baffling. The only thing I am sure of is that you are certain of your use of the word certainty.
Obviously, this whole thread was lost on you if you didn't even notice that the concept I used was uncertainty. Uncertainty can be expressed in different ways, but is the unifying element in both the measuring side of land surveying and the interpretive side.
A Harris, post: 440423, member: 81 wrote: The safety yellow painted rock must be of some significance.
Yes, it means that some lichens are yellow.
Kent McMillan, post: 440446, member: 3 wrote: Obviously, this whole thread was lost on you if you didn't even notice that the concept I used was uncertainty. Uncertainty can be expressed in different ways, but is the unifying element in both the measuring side of land surveying and the interpretive side.
Sure Kent, whatever you say, like this, eh?
Kent McMillan, post: 440030, member: 3 wrote: I'm glad you sat through 6th grade grammar, but as anyone (such as, say, a land surveyor) who makes judgments based upon evidence will know, certainty exists mainly as a relative condition. Only a person who is willing to look a fool will testify with absolute certainty as to events that transpired before he, his parents, or his grandparents were born. What he testify to are fact patterns that tend toward reasonably certainty or that veer away from it in the direction of Oklahoma.
Gene Kooper, post: 440459, member: 9850 wrote: Sure Kent, whatever you say, like this, eh?
Relative degrees of certainty are in the realm of uncertainty. I would have thought that was obvious. One can speak of relative degrees of uncertainty, when conclusions of fact are concerned, but that is a poor habit for a land surveyor to fall into when his opinion is to be presented and "reasonably certain" is compact.
The measurement analogy is the common preference quoting values at 95% confidence rather than 5% uncertainty.
Kent McMillan, post: 440460, member: 3 wrote: Relative degrees of certainty are in the realm of uncertainty. I would have thought that was obvious....
Lemme get this straright now..some certain things are really uncertain, and you think the distinction is obvious?
New "Drinking Game" guys. Every time Kent uses the word "obvious" (or a derivative thereof) we all take a shot of our favorite distilled libation. It will be Friday before any of us know it! 😉
Seriously, I need a large bucket of popcorn for this show! And a large soda as well.
Who needs movies and tv with this kind of entertainment grasping for our attention?
😀
