paden cash, post: 398956, member: 20 wrote: Project document production varies a great deal in our industry. If I were still in with a civil interest where projects included 20, 30 or more drawing "sheets", paper space would definitely be the only way to keep things moving in a profitable manner. But the days of 10 mile long highway jobs are so far back in my rear view mirror I can't even see them anymore. The majority of my production is R/W exhibits required to fit letter size for recordation. I have several scale specific seed dgns I can choose and spit out a print in less than 20 minutes; then spend the majority of my time preparing the written descriptions and dedications.
It would be foolish to attempt to cut 300 acres of hay with a riding mower. But on the other hand it would be just as ludicrous to mow a city lot using a combine with a 20' header.
We all do what we feel is best. Let our profit and loss statement at the end of the year speak for itself.
I get what you're saying here, but it's not as if paperspace takes extra effort. It's fairly simple, doesn't matter if it's for a one lot plan or a 100 lot subdivision.
Once you create your template for each size dwg, with borders and title block, you can just pick which one you need, create your viewport, twist, scale, and you're off and running.
It's actually easier and faster, since you're not scaling your borders to the dwg scale. The borders always stay the same size, 11x17, 18x24, 24x36, etc, no matter what scale you're final dwg is.
BlitzkriegBob, post: 398945, member: 9554 wrote: A1: Yes, twenty-five years ago, with no viable alternatives, I did it the way that Jim in Az describes.
A2: Again, the way that Jim in Az describes. Of course that's assuming that your surveyor doesn't mind you using xrefs, clipping said xrefs, freezing layers (that only became an option in the late 80s I believe), or really any new commands from the last twenty-five years.Here's my advice. Quit your job. If you're serious about your career, nothing good will come from you staying at a place that requires you to use outdated drafting methods. If you came in for an interview with me as a CAD manager and explained that was your SOP, that would kill your chances right then and there.
Do the field crews use a dip needle to locate pins? Do they still set up a baseline, lay down a cloth tape, and slap 90s to locate improvements?
" Of course that's assuming that your surveyor doesn't mind you using xrefs, clipping said xrefs, freezing layers (that only became an option in the late 80s I believe)"
I am the surveyor - and my CAD operations dealing with the manner in which I display my data on a drawing have almost nothing to do with surveying. My master drawing contains everything I have in an unaltered fashion and can be transmitted to others without any work whatsoever. I can produce a drawing in about 65% of the time of anyone else I have ever seen - and I never have incorrect dimensions in paper space because I never allow myself the opportunity. My profitability is testimony to the viability of my methodology.
Just because new methods come along doesn't automatically mean they are better.
Jim in AZ, post: 398976, member: 249 wrote: and I never have incorrect dimensions in paper space because I never allow myself the opportunity
This one mystifies me. Only the border, blocks of notes, legends, etc. should be in paper space. I've gotten drawings from a couple of architects that appeared to have all of the dimensions and text in paper space.....That's not how it is supposed to work. All elements of the drawing go in model space. In particular with the advent of annotative labels and dimensions, it is very easy to draw and label something once and show it at any scale you want or need in paper space through a viewport.
Williwaw, post: 398955, member: 7066 wrote: Seems half the time I need to share one my drawings with another user and all of my symbols and annotations are on paper space I'm having to spend extra time to get them back into model so the recipient can work with it because they're using some different CAD platform.
I do my annotations and symbols in model space but you can see them in the viewport. I keep the general survey notes in paper space. FYI ~ if you want to switch something from paper-space to model-space or vice versa try the CHSPACE command. It's a huge time saver!
Dan Patterson, post: 398980, member: 1179 wrote: I do my annotations and symbols in model space but you can see them in the viewport. I keep the general survey notes in paper space. FYI ~ if you want to switch something from paper-space to model-space or vice versa try the CHSPACE command. It's a huge time saver!
I agree. As a general rule, I put everything that's part of the body of the plan in modelspace, and everything that's apart from the actually dwg, like notes, title, legend, etc, in paperspace.
I put the north arrow in model space too, as it's far less likely to screw that up there. I've seen some bad norths where people have stuck them in papespace.
This brings about another question Williwaw: "I cut my teeth in paper space using LDD and for some applications it's really the only way to go, but for 95% of what I do every day the pros of doing everything model space out weight the cons once I have the scale worked out. Seems half the time I need to share one my drawings with another user and all of my symbols and annotations are on paper space I'm having to spend extra time to get them back into model so the recipient can work with it because they're using some different CAD platform. Working in model simplifies things, until it doesn't, and then I switch. Multiple sheets, index sheets, not problem in model space. Both ways work and I often use paper space to check things over before hitting 'plot'. But, whatever floats your boat.
And BlitzBob, it's all about the best tool for the job at hand, and sometimes a rag tape and wing-ding are good enough."
What do you allow to go to your clients? My laid off this week Project Manager/direct supervisor taught me that the clients do not need to see any anything more than what is absolutely necessary to prevent questions coming up that call into question our work.
Q3. With things drawn in model space don't the clients see everything? Do you have a master drawing that you keep at your office with everything, and only show what's needed to the client via XREF or copy/pasting techniques?
And thank you all for the discussion! I really respect our RPLS so that's why I was wanting more opinions than my own. To know that it's doable is a great relief. To know that it will likely be time consuming on my part is important as well. I've been asking our RPLS to show me how he works through the plat process and the opportunity to do that has not come up yet, and I expect it will teach me why he hates paperspace with viewports so much.
I did do the scaling of borders in model space for a few years while at a job working only with lot and block title surveys. But with the current job of oil and gas surveys now, usually over a mile in length, it's all been paperspace with viewports and multiple Layout tabs, and I can appreciated the simplicity of scaling the contents of the viewport, the beauty of the DVIEW - Twist options, and the lifesaver command of CHSPACE. (I'm also a big fan of VPMAX & VPMIN.)
And I have no clue how comfortable our RPLS is with XREFs. If he is, then I think I will try the drafting of plats in model space. As it stands currently, the fastest way possible is how it's going to get done (via paperspace and viewports), because the boss is looking at the bottom line cost of operating, and neither I nor the RPLS are safe from budget cuts.
paden cash, post: 398921, member: 20 wrote: We use to use paper space and it's really neat. But the employee that knew how to set it all up left and we went back to model space...:(
I know there is always new things to learn. That being said, if you would want help with re-setting up the paper space, I would be happy to share my knowledge. 🙂
AMM_The_Drafter, post: 398991, member: 9770 wrote: I know there is always new things to learn. That being said, if you would want help with re-setting up the paper space, I would be happy to share my knowledge. 🙂
I appreciate that, I really do. I would take you up on it but it was really meant as a joke. We use MS and their comparable feature is called "SHEET MODEL" (v DESIGN MODEL). It doesn't work exactly like paper space in AutoCAD, but similar.
AMM_The_Drafter, post: 398989, member: 9770 wrote: This brings about another question Williwaw: "I cut my teeth in paper space using LDD and for some applications it's really the only way to go, but for 95% of what I do every day the pros of doing everything model space out weight the cons once I have the scale worked out. Seems half the time I need to share one my drawings with another user and all of my symbols and annotations are on paper space I'm having to spend extra time to get them back into model so the recipient can work with it because they're using some different CAD platform. Working in model simplifies things, until it doesn't, and then I switch. Multiple sheets, index sheets, not problem in model space. Both ways work and I often use paper space to check things over before hitting 'plot'. But, whatever floats your boat.
And BlitzBob, it's all about the best tool for the job at hand, and sometimes a rag tape and wing-ding are good enough."
What do you allow to go to your clients? My laid off this week Project Manager/direct supervisor taught me that the clients do not need to see any anything more than what is absolutely necessary to prevent questions coming up that call into question our work.
Q3. With things drawn in model space don't the clients see everything? Do you have a master drawing that you keep at your office with everything, and only show what's needed to the client via XREF or copy/pasting techniques?And thank you all for the discussion! I really respect our RPLS so that's why I was wanting more opinions than my own. To know that it's doable is a great relief. To know that it will likely be time consuming on my part is important as well. I've been asking our RPLS to show me how he works through the plat process and the opportunity to do that has not come up yet, and I expect it will teach me why he hates paperspace with viewports so much.
I did do the scaling of borders in model space for a few years while at a job working only with lot and block title surveys. But with the current job of oil and gas surveys now, usually over a mile in length, it's all been paperspace with viewports and multiple Layout tabs, and I can appreciated the simplicity of scaling the contents of the viewport, the beauty of the DVIEW - Twist options, and the lifesaver command of CHSPACE. (I'm also a big fan of VPMAX & VPMIN.)
And I have no clue how comfortable our RPLS is with XREFs. If he is, then I think I will try the drafting of plats in model space. As it stands currently, the fastest way possible is how it's going to get done (via paperspace and viewports), because the boss is looking at the bottom line cost of operating, and neither I nor the RPLS are safe from budget cuts.
" With things drawn in model space don't the clients see everything?"
NO. Organize things using LAYERS - if you don't want to plot something freeze the appropriate LAYERs when you plot, or set those layers you do not want to plot to not plot. Its extremely simple. If I am sending the drawing file itself to someone I use the first method (frozen LAYERs), and then use WBLOCK to export only the visible entities to a new drawing.
There is nothing very time consuming to it - I would say less than 5 minutes/sheet for set up time.
XREF's are simple - you are just bringing in an unalterable copy of a master drawing into each sheet drawing.
BlitzkriegBob, post: 398945, member: 9554 wrote: A1: Yes, twenty-five years ago, with no viable alternatives, I did it the way that Jim in Az describes.
A2: Again, the way that Jim in Az describes. Of course that's assuming that your surveyor doesn't mind you using xrefs, clipping said xrefs, freezing layers (that only became an option in the late 80s I believe), or really any new commands from the last twenty-five years.Here's my advice. Quit your job. If you're serious about your career, nothing good will come from you staying at a place that requires you to use outdated drafting methods. If you came in for an interview with me as a CAD manager and explained that was your SOP, that would kill your chances right then and there.
Do the field crews use a dip needle to locate pins? Do they still set up a baseline, lay down a cloth tape, and slap 90s to locate improvements?
I disagree with your career advice, Her goal is to become an RPLS not a CAD Manager, as an RPLS you have to know a lot about a lot of difference fields, the legal aspects, how to do the fieldwork, research, etc... Some people are expert in all of the fields, some are average in all, some excel at just a few areas. I am a boundary expert, not a CAD expert.
If she is at a company where she can learn from the RPLS, some days work in the field others do research, and draft that is a plus.
What are you going to say to her, Oh you understand survey work, you know who to draft, but sorry I can not take half a day to show you how to use viewport. I want my CAD guys to understand the importance of the boundary, not to change the boundary to match the drawing like an Architect firm would do. It is difficult to find a great drafter that wants to do Survey work, and understands the importance of a line being off 0.30 tenths.
You may be on the cutting edge of technology today, but in 20 years you may still be doing your drafting the same way, because you know how to do it that way and you feel comfortable doing it that way.
[USER=249]@Jim in AZ[/USER]
I'm not sure what part of my post offended you, but whatever it was, I offer my sincere apology. I only brought your name up because I felt the way you explained how you do your work is the best way to do what the OP was asking.
[USER=7154]@Scott Ellis[/USER]
I don't see anywhere where she talks about wanting to be an RPLS, but even if that is her goal, she already knows how to use paper space. It is her boss that doesn't understand how it works.
For everyone else,
I know I get long-winded sometimes. I was trying to be more brief with my answer. My longer answer would be that I have done most of my work in Houston, and I know how volatile the O&G business can be. Layoffs are always around the corner, and the first day you don't have enough to keep you busy is the day you're out the door. For that reason, you have to have the skills to be able to find another job. You would be hard pressed to find a company that does all their work in model space. I've worked at many firms in several states over the last twenty-five of my 35 years in this business, and not a single one worked in model space once paper space became available. Of course I don't work for mom & pop companies. I make more money than they would want to pay me, so perhaps it's different at those places.
[USER=9770]@AMM_The_Drafter[/USER]
Hopefully you understood where I was coming from, and where I was going. I am a drafter too. I've done surveying and civil engineering work for longer than I care to remember. My dad was a drafter. I wish I had a dollar for every time I had a surveyor or an engineer tell me that my dad was the best drafter they ever knew. I started off hand drafting, progressed to working CAD and cogo programs on mainframes, and was lucky enough to start working with Autocad 2.5 back in 1986 I believe. I'm not really called a drafter any more. I've been out in the field, starting off as the bucket guy on a five man crew all the way to a party chief. I've been an inspector on construction projects. I've been a survey technician (the only tech in a company with 7 RPLS on staff that worked my own projects, including boundary resolutions). I've been a designer. Now I'm mostly called a senior designer/cad manager. I've trained survey crews how to use F2F. I've trained surveyors, both RPLS and party chiefs, how to use CAD. I've trained engineers how to use CAD. I've trained draftsmen who knew how to use CAD but were getting left behind because of their fear of embracing new methods. I've mentored other senior designers and survey techs who are always looking for better ways to get jobs done.
Only you know what your career goals are. Whatever they are, I firmly believe you should strive to make yourself better. I am never satisfied with every aspect of how I do my job. I am constantly looking for ways to improve. If you want to be able to sell yourself, especially as someone who works in a volatile field, you have get better every day. Learn to become a leader. Take that RPLS by the hand and be a teacher. I remember my RPLS mentor, and how afraid he was of change. He taught me most all I know about surveying, even though I didn't take his advice and get my license before Texas changed their rules. In return, I taught him how to be better working within CAD. That is what I look for when my boss asks me about hiring CAD staff. I'm just a working guy. That's all I will ever be. Hopefully you can be something better!
Best regards,
Bob Garcia
Dan Patterson, post: 398916, member: 1179 wrote: I don't like the idea. I have a lot more going on in model space than what is shown on the sheet. Usually there is line work that extends beyond the sheet as well. What do you do? Trim it? Seems silly and antiquated to me since the software has the capability to do it a better way. Also for proposed info like on a subdivision I will use the vport layer controls. I can have one drawing with multiple sheets. If you go in model space it looks pretty messy, but when you tab through the sheets there are different things on/off on each one.
I'm lost on that one, why would you need to trim anything?
I never have lines going right to the border. I always have them stop about 1/4" inside the border on the paper. Maybe it's just a preference thing....
Dan Patterson, post: 399020, member: 1179 wrote: I never have lines going right to the border. I always have them stop about 1/4" inside the border on the paper. Maybe it's just a preference thing....
I usually don't, but if one passes under the border like a row line I just plot it that way and the process of plotting makes anything passed the border vanish anyway, I do both model and paper space, it's just way faster to do a model space setup with a simple drawing. When there are a bunch of sheets then....
Use Layout/Paper space....it will save you time AND $$$.
My thought is to embrace it because it's not going away anytime soon. My $0.02.
