To all the seasoned surveyors out there, I humbly beg of your opinions and experience. The company I work for is primarily a smaller engineering company and I've had a long slog of a fight to get them to buy me some decent equipment. I've been using the following:
ValPar VTS02B
https://www.brandt.ca/Divisions/Tractor/ValPar/Precision-Instruments
I firmly believe using this piece of garbage is the main reason for the lack of hair on my head.
We finally got a used Spectra Focus 10 with a TSC2 running SCS900 v2.92 and we have a Trimble Ranger running SurvCE 4 (seems to be a TDS Ranger 500x from its squishy buttons and looks; just has a Trimble badge). It was bought off a contractor so it came with a bunch of "extras." It has the "blue light" radio so I suspect it's the 2.4ghz model. I've been tasked with figuring it out. In regards to this setup, I have the following questions:
1. Does the Focus 10 have the same "feature" of the Geod. 600 and Trimble 5600 series where it has an internal battery that, when it goes dead, loses the calibration? Ie. are we on the hook for a calibration/battery change every 3 to 5 years with this instrument?
2. What beach umbrella did people use with this gun/series and how did they set it up? I used to wonder why there were so many pictures of 600's with an umbrella--after a low-in-the-sky sun day with the gun I now know why. I could get a horizontal, vertical, and distance reading using the SCS900 menu, but it would NOT for the life of me take a reading. I only needed a few shots so I just set up the total station and ran back and forth using the prism with a bipod. Who needs a gym membership, eh? I'm thinking a separate set of legs with the umbrella through the top, secured to one of the legs. I'm fearful of placing something on the station's legs as one gust could take the whole thing down.
3. I have both the RMT 604/606 (360 prism with LED's fanning out radially) and RMT 602 (single sided, jumbo prism with 5 LED's below the prism that are arranged to point the same direction as the single prism; it also has 2 buttons on it). Is there a preference between these? Is one easier to get a lock on? Do they have the same prism constant?
4. The SCS900 software is, bar none, the worst data collector software I have ever had to use. It's just so......"contractor-y" that it's painful. It seems like it's tailored so that someone in the know can setup a grading job so that a fresh, snot-nosed 14 year can go out there and check granular 'A' being placed for payment on a quantity-based tender. Is there a simple way to just punch in a station to occupy (ie. 1,10000,5000,100,OCC), set 0 on a backsite, shoot it, store it, define your setup, and start spraying? I don't have a GPS so I can't just slam down a few points, transfer them, and go to town. When a data collector makes me wish I had my old SDR-33 back.........just wow.
5. I have a Geod. 600 faceplate and a Focus 10 faceplate. The 5600 faceplate has been cracked and seems like it would need to be repaired. I'd like to use SurvCE as SCS900 is just awful. I've thought of the following sequences if anyone could critique:
Option 1
-Focus 10 w/ Geod. faceplate
-turn on gun, level using faceplate
-turn on Ranger w/ SurvCE 4 and georadio
-connect and go
I presume one still does this for radio and SurvCE?
Comms
Geodimeter/Trimble default communication settings in SurvCE are
9600,8,None,1. To check these settings on the instrument, do the following:
1. Select MNU, ENT, 4 (Data com), 1 (Select device), 2 (Serial)
2. At prompt ??Serial ON??, select ENT
3. Verify COM=1.8.0.9600 followed by ENT
Option 2
-Focus 10 w/ robotic faceplate (ie. on/off button only)
-turn on gun, level using data collector running SCS900 (it can use the bubble)
-power down gun and collector
-hook up radio to data collector running SurvCE
-power up gun
-connect and go
Option 3
-Focus 10 w/ Focus 10 faceplate
-turn on gun, level using faceplate
-power down gun (I don't believe the Focus 10 faceplate "jives" with SurvCE like the Geod. 600 one does)
-hook up radio to data collector running SurvCE
-power up gun
-connect and go
Any reason to suspect these methods won't work? My main confusion seems
6. I noticed that SurvCE can track the prism using a GPS. They seem to recommend a "Garmin 10." Do they mean this Garmin NMT NMEA one?
https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-010-01134-00-GNT-NMEA-Transceiver-x/dp/B00B2HH8UA
Any other add-on options that people have used?
7. Is there anyway to change between prisms while using SurvCE 4? Ie. even going back to the gun when using a Geod. 600 faceplate?
8. How does one tell if they have a laser in the gun? I have the central tracking light module, but I'm stumped looking at it. As far as I can tell, the Focus 10 doesn't have the option for a prismless laser disto measurement like the 5600 series.
Upgrades down the road are the Lipo radio replacment and maybe the bluetooth/serial radios mods.
I realize that any self-respecting surveyor out there is looking at this situation and shaking his head. I use the tools that I am given to make "magic dots" for the designers. It's even more frustrating for me as I previously worked for a multi-national surveying/engineering/planning firm where we always got the most recent software/hardware and we did QA on other, smaller firms. But I play the hand I am dealt and not the one I wish I had.
Any and all help/input is greatly appreciated. The few sentences from experienced people will save me hours of head scratching that I will be enternally grateful for (please let me know of a charitable organization I can make a donation to for your time if that will compel you to aid me).
Side note--I'd love Richard Imrie or Norm Larson to comment as most of the posts on RPLS I've searched had their name come up 🙂
2) I keep a piece of 1/2 inch rebar that is 5'-7" long (one inch shorter than the bed of my truck) and a golf umbrella in my truck. Drive the rebar and use electrical tape to secure the umbrella handle to the rebar.
4) SCS900 is intended to take a design from a computer and facilitate putting that design on the ground. All the intelligent work is done in the office. It's been on my DC for 11 years and I still have not bothered to learn it. I much prefer Survey Controller or Access.
Sympathy.
More sympathy.
Engineering firms will spend 35k on new truck.
$1200 eBay gear.
The end.
N
SCS900 is a CONTRACTOR level interface for simple tasks for location and stakeout.?ÿ It is setup where the design is created in the office and items are staked from that design.
Yes, when the internal battery goes out on the Geodimeter 600/Trimble 5600, it will need the firmware reloaded after replacing the battery. Since these models are discontinued, good luck in finding parts / service for it.?ÿ Not many places will have the capability or desire to work on them.?ÿ I do have a 360 prism for a geodimeter at home if you want to purchase a backup.
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JaRo, thank you for that.?ÿ It was exactly the kind of input I was looking for.
Nate, I don't even get a truck!?ÿ Granted, I get $0.50/km to drive around my minivan but a truck is a but a dream ;)?ÿ ?ÿI appreciate your sympathy as I feel that the sentiment you're expressing is, for the most part, a valid statement when it comes to engineering firms in regards to surveying.
"Magic dots" on one's screen always take too long to collect, are too expensive, and should be correct to sub mm levels because, well, that's what AutoCAD says.?ÿ ?ÿ Wish I could change that but playing the hand I'm dealt.
VA LS 2867, yes, the item was bought off a former contractor.?ÿ However, in the v2.92 manual it does state one can start a job and set their own control (though it is not advised).?ÿ I was wondering if anyone has done that.
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To confirm, the Focus 10 also had this "feature?"?ÿ I was under the impression that the Focus 10 was just a "blue" 5600 but was hoping S.P. had a workaround for that annoying "feature."?ÿ I will definitely keep you in mind when someone in the office smashes the prism 😉
Thought I would update this having used the thing for a couple of months.?ÿ Perhaps it could help someone researching one.
Focus 10
Pros:
-comes w/ a laser
-works off a 12v car battery
-seems pretty rugged
-good tracking light and range
-tracks better in trees than some instrument men I've had
-good range, links up quick w/ the "blue-dot" Georadio
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Cons:
-can't figure out how to use the laser w/ the SCS900 software for site features
-12v battery is heavy
-has difficulty tracking in low summer sun between 4 to 7pm
-tracks so-so after sunset
-easy to mix up radio cables (but that's PEBKAC)
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TSC2 running SCS900
Pros:
-easy to switch prisms
-can export out the surface & PNEZD CSV
-easy to differentiate out control
-easy to setup up averaging control shots w/ the scope dumped multiple times
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Cons:
-hard to get a topo going w/ out GPS control (I get around it by OCC 1,10000,5000,100,PK, putting in a dummy point 4 metres away, taping to that, complete the setup, shooting a BS, redoing the setup off that BS shot, and then placing my primary control)
-no adjustment on the collector (one has to be very fussy off the initial setup backsighting/placing control w/ multiple scope dumps/averaging along w/ an independent check shot on each setup.....but everybody does that anyway right??ÿ Purpose of acquiring RTS was for basic engineering topo surveys so that quells the "voices" in the back of my head how silly this is........but "field reality != office mentality" and I use the tools I'm given).
-no RW5/FBK output (so no adjustment back at the office)
-no offsets (get around that by using Civil 3D "extend" command, but that means 2 shots instead of one)
-has problem exporting out CSV's if you put the collector to sleep (it won't output the file; solution is to exit SCS, restart program, and then export)
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My GPS data collector (Ranger) also came w/ Carlson 4.07 on it.?ÿ I performed one topo w/ it and noticed the following:
Pros:
-"legit" surveying data software
-can adjust
-multiple hardware support (connects to my personal Sokkia Set4 and seems to connect to our recently purchased Hemisphere GSP units; looking forward to trying them out w/ it!)
-offsets
-code sets
-just soooooo much better
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Cons:
-WRITE DOWN YOUR REGISTRATION INFO! (I had not--luckily, the seller had it.?ÿ It is now in the data collector bag.?ÿ Thought I lost the whole topo, but the 15 points in "Demo" mode expanded back to the full topo when registration was re-entered.?ÿ It was a rather sphincter tightening moment.?ÿ Carlson *really* does not like a low battery or you putting it to sleep.?ÿ Just write down the info, email it to yourself.........multiple backups of info recommended!)
-no electronic bubble support (I level it in SCS900 and then switch back to Carlson; I believe Carlson 5 solves this, but I can't comment as I don't have that).
-the Ranger doesn't come w/ a NMEA GPS unit to help w/ tracking (I'm debating buying a Bluetooth one to pair to it).
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All in all, not a 1/2 bad gun.?ÿ If it wasn't for the sun tracking/battery maintenance nonsense it would be a pretty good topo gun.?ÿ I understand why a bunch of guys run S6's w/ Multitrack now.
Thanks for all the comments.?ÿ Cheers.
Great write-up, and apologies, I've just read your first post (missed it when it first came out). I've been through all this with a Geodimeter 650DR200+ (I've also got a 5601, but don't use it for reasons stated in various posts) running SurvCE 3, then all into Civil3D. I recently wrote a manual for staff to use for setting up and running it, so I can forward that to you if you want - we currently set it up with keyboard off (and a blank plate on the instrument), via a t-connector, that way we don't have to touch the instrument (particularly the wrestle-fest to remove keyboard after shutting it down to go into robotic mode).
I'm surprised about the low sun tracking issue - never had that. The RMT has LED (infra-red?) diodes that emit at a certain frequency and the tracker (the scope below the optical scope) tracks that frequency and locks on to it, not sure how that would be affected if say the sun was directly behind the RMT, and further, if it's dark there should be no effect at all as the tracking method is not a visible light thing.
As I understand it (and verified by a Carlson employee via this Forum) SurvCE 5 does have electronic bubble. I'm fairly sure that it (as per previous versions) doesn't have prism offsets, so you need to go back to the keyboard.
Could you help me understand this? I've looked at systems with the SCS900 software, but it's this kind of shenanigans that puts me off.?ÿ Is this to say that you can't do a topo with "dummy" control??ÿ Does it not allow you to shoot a dummy EDM distance between your setup and that dummy point (therefore requiring you to tape to it)??ÿ Seem crazy!?ÿ How has field software managed to get worse in the last 20 years...?
Cons:
-hard to get a topo going w/ out GPS control (I get around it by OCC 1,10000,5000,100,PK, putting in a dummy point 4 metres away, taping to that, complete the setup, shooting a BS, redoing the setup off that BS shot, and then placing my primary control)
Here's the guide. In Line 5, when the instrument is first turned on the e-bubble shows up and it is in coarse mode, so you level it in that and run the compensator. After that the e-bubble is in fine mode, so you can fine tune the level, check/move the centering, relevel, turn compensator off, back on, rerun compenstator.
Unless it's cloudy (and not raining), to keep the sun off the instrument (reduce thermal effects on the setup) or the rain (I can't find anywhere what the IP rating of the Geodimeter is) we always have the instrument under an umbrella (on a separate tripod, I made a shaft with a tribach thread on it and strap the umbrella shaft to it, the umbrella is one of the expensive ones $100, with a split cover so the wind can blow through it reducing the load on it). Tripod needs to be weighted down, or tied, if setup is on hard surface.
Could you help me understand this? I've looked at systems with the SCS900 software, but it's this kind of shenanigans that puts me off.?ÿ Is this to say that you can't do a topo with "dummy" control??ÿ Does it not allow you to shoot a dummy EDM distance between your setup and that dummy point (therefore requiring you to tape to it)??ÿ Seem crazy!?ÿ How has field software managed to get worse in the last 20 years...?
Cons:
-hard to get a topo going w/ out GPS control (I get around it by OCC 1,10000,5000,100,PK, putting in a dummy point 4 metres away, taping to that, complete the setup, shooting a BS, redoing the setup off that BS shot, and then placing my primary control)
Please take into account this is someone just using the SCS software for the first time.?ÿ This is the most common method of doing a setup I've done in the past (ie. SDR33 w/ Sokkia/Nikon, Leica 1100/1200/Viva, etc.?ÿ Been over a decade since I cranked angles w/ a Topcon/FC setup or Trimble using Survey Pro so I can't recall if they're similar, but I imagine so).
Usual Non-GPS Topo Setup:
1. set up on "main" or OCC point (this point can be leveled to and/or coordinated off HCM's using GPS or conventionally later; points can be vertically floated/coordinated and grid/ground specifics worked out in the office if required).
2. assign OCC point standard PNEZD of 1,10000,5000,100,CC (numbers, coords, codes, etc. are "player's choice" )
3. set a far backsite (ie. down the street, far away from the site to minimize chances of it being destroyed and this point also can be leveled to and/or coordinated off HCM's using GPS or conventionally later; points can be vertically floated/coordinated and grid/ground specifics worked out in the office if required)
4. if you're setting up legs w/ a prism on the BS, you can set your angle to 0 on it.?ÿ If no legs or if you prefer using a "natural 0," like a known vertical church steeple cross or a tall cell tower so you can easily check your 0 on, set 0 on it.
5. take a DIST/MEAS shot on your backsite (either w/ the leg/prism or using the pole)
6. that gets stored and you complete your setup
7. I then set a FS down the road (my check and away from the site so it lasts) and, say I'm doing a house/site survey, set 2 trav points on site.?ÿ One for my next setup, and one for my last setup on my loop.?ÿ Average/dump the scope as you see fit for your FS's.
8. spray and pray working your way around the house/site
9. checks along traverse recommended (ie. tops of foundation, corner of sidewalks, audit strings, etc.)
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Using the SCS900"
1.?ÿ Same
2. Same
2a. Punch in a "dummy" backsite (ie. 2, 10004,5000,100,TEMP)
2c. Tape 4m away, point the gun, complete the setup.
3. Same
3a.?ÿ Once that point has been shot, I redo the setup (ie. OCC #1, BS#3).?ÿ Consult your notes/memory for the HI height.
4.?ÿ No longer relevant
5. No longer relevant
6. to 8. Same
9. Unfortunately, my copy of SCS900 has no way to export FBK/RW5 files and does not have a way to do a closure on the collector.?ÿ Checks are even more important due to this.?ÿ
I'm just doing smaller site, low order topos; still rather concerning for me.?ÿ However, the engineers in the office, having been informed of these limitation, are happy with "magic dots" and I work with the equipment I'm given.
The SCS software seems *extremely* tailored to being handed to a summer student who hops along hitting "measure."?ÿ All the control setup, from my take on it, needs to be handed to the controller (ie. a "dirt jumper" gets an engineering file, creates a control localization file, creates the TIN/DEM for the contractor, contractor/"dirt jumper" does layout/machine control, etc.).
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I would not recommend the software to anyone concerned with the precision of their data measured in less than whole inch numbers.
Cool, thanks for the explanation. My impression of SCS900 had been the same (that it's targeted to knuckle draggers), but I was hoping I was wrong.
I don't like SCS900 either, but you don't have to set anything to set up on or shoot for a backsite initially if you are just making up coordinates anyway. I usually plug in something for setup point and something else for a backsite point, set it to read horizontal angle only, point it somewhere and record it. Then, I'll set and shoot whatever control points I need for later before I shoot anything else. Rotate and translate as needed.?ÿ
Is the 360 prism still available?
Thanks for the confirmation!?ÿ I had tried that earlier, but it didn't seem to work.?ÿ I'll chalk that up to PEBKAC and give it a try next time.
By chance, is there a way to do an offset with it? (ie. shoot a distance beside a HP, and offset it the radius to your left or right).
Or is there a way to shoot a distance and turn the angle??ÿ (ie. shoot a distance beside a HP, and walk the angle to the centre).
Cheers.
Thanks so much for this post and the manual.?ÿ Sad that one has to say #1, but appreciate how it is the first thing in the manual.?ÿ
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#3?ÿ Do you always take the gun off the tribrach??ÿ That's definitely a novel, to me, way to set things up.?ÿ I presume this is done to minimize the chance of dropping the RTS, due to its weight, on the initial setup ?
?ÿwe currently set it up with keyboard off (and a blank plate on the instrument), via a t-connector, that way we don't have to touch the instrument (particularly the wrestle-fest to remove keyboard after shutting it down to go into robotic mode).
Please excuse my ignorance--but what's a T-connector??ÿ From your pics it looks like you're using a Bluetooth setup??ÿ I presume the Parani's??ÿ What parts are you using and how are they hooked up?
Sounds like you plug the RPU into the gun (via a T-cable), level it, unplug it, and then plug in the Parani transmitter from your manual.
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I'm still using the old Georadio's as, well, it's what I was given and they seem to work well.?ÿ Cables are a little annoying, but it is what its.
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I've also got a 5601, but don't use it for reasons stated in various posts
Sorry, do you have a link to these posts??ÿ Or a quick summary?
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Side note--is the ability to search this forum a "pay" feature or am I just blind?
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An easy way to search is thru Google - rpls Geodimeter, or similar, and let it rip.
Ken
Here's a sketch of the setup:
I concluded that best practice was to complete the tripod setup to the stage of legs locked and set in the ground, with the instrument off, for safety of the instrument (tripod collapse, knocking over, jiggling around etc).
The 5601 has a Trimble ACU keyboard. I can get it to shut the instrument down to go into "remote" mode, but can't get the Nomad/SurvCE to restart it (although I think I probably can now, as I probably got the startup sequence wrong). It also has tracker misalignment to the scope, 300mm at 200m, which although the instrument compensates for, it doesn't feel good to me. The Geodimeter 650 is 25mm off at 200m.
Much appreciated. I have the Geod and the SP Focus 10 boards so, when the radios die, I may have have to give this a try. I also have the Trimble SCS board, but it was broken when I received the package.
I presume the "T" connector is just a hirose 3 way?
It also has tracker misalignment to the scope, 300mm at 200m, which although the instrument compensates for, it doesn't feel good to me. The Geodimeter 650 is 25mm off at 200m.
Sorry, I don't understand. Are you saying the RTS tracker, horizontally, differs by that much from the scope location on the 5601? Ie. everywhere you shoot would be 1' off and it's compensated for? How did you determine that?
Between the Paranis, the IR mod of the gent today, and the battery mod of the other gent....it seems like there is quite the "modding" community around these old workhorses.
So, with the Geodimeter 650, when I do this tracker collimation at 200m in Autolock the optical scope is about 25mm left and up of the prism. The collimation procedure is automatic, it starts in one face then spins to the other, and from memory the optical scope is then looking about the same position but right and down, so presumably that's how the procedure calculates the adjustment for the tracker misalignment. On the 5601, it is sighting 300mm to the left, but not off vertical.
As posted in another thread, Trimble S-series don't have a separate tracker scope, it is in the optical scope, however it still has misalignment and has a similar tracker collimation procedure.
