let's say something novel develops. like: a local title agency- one with whom you've done a ton of work over the past two decades, one you know to be the absolute cream of the crop in terms of expertise, diligence, and market share in the local "big" project market- has decided they want to try something new and hire a surveyor to develop a review system and process for all the surveys that come through their door. their theory being that they will get better expertise in survey matters and better response from surveyors if the surveyors get comments back from a fellow licensee.
let's say you get a phone call from one of your many contacts there. they want you. they'll interview people, but the job is yours if you'll say yes. they'll pay you what you've made the last couple years. it's hourly. anything over 40 is OT.
let's say your business- the one you own- is killing it. you're busier than you can handle. so busy you can't find the time to wade through the resumes and interview people you need to hire to help. so busy you can't hire the person to do the resume wading and interviewing for you. so busy you get phone calls on sunday mornings and miss your kids' soccer games here and there and your wife is regularly complaining now about how it'd be nice if you were at dinner more often.
what would you do?
I have learned to value my time at home even though I'm not married (nor in a relationship, happy living alone). I have things to do outside of work which I enjoy. Wish I had more time to do the things I enjoy instead of work. I resist the urge ("request" of bosses) to work plenty of overtime.
And while I understand the desire for making money, I am unable to understand having an abode which is little (if anything) more than a crash pad for the times away from work.
I believe there to be a balance somewhere in the middle.
Has a hint of politics in the job description where as long as your views are their views all is well.
When that changes the open door policy could hit you in the rear very fast.
A Harris, post: 394342, member: 81 wrote: Has a hint of politics in the job description where as long as your views are their views all is well.
When that changes the open door policy could hit you in the rear very fast.
not sure i catch your drift. but i'm not worried about that at all- like i said, i've worked on TONS of projects in the past 15-20 years where these guys wrote title. they know exactly what they'd get out of me, and that wouldn't include anything consciously unethical, regardless of who's paying the bill.
ed: if that's in refrence to the "big" comment, all i mean by that is they underwrite the vast majority of the high profile, high liability, big ticket developments and transactions locally. i've always understood this to be because interested parties understand, as i and i know many other surveyors do, that they are a cut above anyone else available. to be clear, i probably wouldn't consider the same offer from anyone else.
Worse case scenario: what happens if the economy tanks? I realize that would be an issue whether you're working for them or yourself, but what did they do in the last recession? How many people did they lay off?
All I can tell you is there is a lot to be said for punching out at the end of the day and being able to leave it all behind until the next morning rolls around. I've burnt the candle at both ends and getting 'burnt out' is a real danger in any profession. Which of your option is the more sustainable?
Let's say you're talking to someone that has "been there done that" and left private practice for a desk with an established firm. Let's say your mileage may vary. Let's say this someone discovered that even with all the freedom that was promised, it was readily evident that once this someone had ran his own outfit he became completely unsuitable as an "employee".
Like I said, your mileage may vary. Good luck with whichever endeavor you choose.
mkennedy, post: 394348, member: 7183 wrote: Worse case scenario: what happens if the economy tanks? I realize that would be an issue whether you're working for them or yourself, but what did they do in the last recession? How many people did they lay off?
they had zero layoffs, or minimal effective. just a good belt tightening. whereas the firm where i worked had something like 65% layoffs, of which i happened to survive.
bottom line for me is i'm 3 years into my first business ownership experience, and i think i'm coming to the conclusion that it's not for me. certainly a skillset that i could acquire, but i'm not sure at my age that i want to. i ain't old, but i'm not young either (a friend asking "are y'all gonna have any more kids?" last week made me realize i'm too long in the tooth for that possibility). i'm at the top of my game in terms of experience and connections and reputation, and this is an opportunity that isn't likely to come along too often, if ever. i can sell out while it's good and make some money, and take a job where i get to be good at what i'm good at. the main drawback being that there's like zero field component to it- but there hasn't been much of that with this gig for the better part of the last year either. and scaling this business up almost certainly means lots of things, but getting back into the field on the daily isn't one of them.
i've been offered other jobs completely unsolicited over the past couple years. for more money. lots more. never had the interest in running some huge department for a gigantic firm. but this is really compelling. for a couple reasons: one being that it's almost entirely focused on what i enjoy the most about our profession: the forensics end. another being that it's an opportunity to perhaps contribute to and/or create a better path going forward. as in: would your gut reaction change if you got a redlined ALTA back from a title company if you knew the redlines were coming from an RPLS as opposed to a title examiner whose credentials are entirely unknown to you?
and to be clear: if i could talk kent into taking the gig (he's one of maybe a couple of local surveyors more qualified than i for this job) and get him to hand his dream-practice over to me, i'd do it in a heartbeat. doubt that's gonna happen though.
Mr. Solo,
You have to ask these questions of yourself. Would I be able to or want to carry on any aspect of your current "flying solo" business? How will you divest yourself from the bulk of the "flying solo" business? How long would that take? What is my relationship with Brand X, Y and Z and do I want to put myself into a position to compromise that with a new position of authority?
Opportunities like this will not come around very often, but they do. It helps to have a goal looking down the road and stay focused on that goal. I apologize for answering a question with more question but we all need to have an exit strategy. If this opportunity does not work out for you, take your status with said title company seriously and help them find someone suitable.
flyin solo, post: 394339, member: 8089 wrote: a local title agency- one with whom you've done a ton of work over the past two decades, one you know to be the absolute cream of the crop in terms of expertise, diligence, and market share in the local "big" project market- has decided they want to try something new and hire a surveyor to develop a review system and process for all the surveys that come through their door. their theory being that they will get better expertise in survey matters and better response from surveyors if the surveyors get comments back from a fellow licensee.
The thing that strikes me as wrong with this scenario is that the economics of land title insurance as presently constituted mean that there isn't enough money for the agent to actually do any sort of meaningful review of survey products beyond just comparing map and description to the commitment items and property description.
What many title agents do need is someone who can intelligently interpret record descriptions and prepare abstract maps, but when you consider that the cost would potentially run to thousands of bucks in a typical transaction involving a patchwork of metes and bounds tracts, if computed at any reasonable rate, that is unlikely to happen as a sustained effort. So, the idea may be that a "process" can be developed that is a sustitute for expert examination, but I don't think it is likely to amount to anything other than a way to identify grossly substandard survey products that are beyond rehabilitation within the time schedule of most real estate closings.
kent, i agree wholeheartedly. first off, though, while the closing timeframe you speak of is understood, this position will be almost exclusively focused on the commercial division, where lead times on closings often run into months (i'm basing all of this upon being on "our" end of it). this won't be reviewing 800 house lots a month. i'm not so concerned about deadlines abrogating the time needed for due diligence. slightly, perhaps, but probably less so than as somebody attempting to output a finished product.
but to your second point- absolutely, but that's just it: does it not seem like it could be a position to potentially, in whatever level of significance, elevate the minimum acceptable standards- at least of some select number of practitioners? may well be a pipe dream, but if one can artfully and slowly implement a consistent and rigorous set of demands by way of comments and redlines from the de facto buyer's end of the equation... i guess i see the possibility to positively affect the quality of product being produced. i know from experience that i do more homework on every job than the vast majority of practitioners around here. i know that i'm familiar with resources and records and history on a level not familiar to many local surveyors. and i say all of this not as an act of self inflation, but for the sake its value. seems like a passive alternative to other forms of recourse to substandard work, and one that could, eventually, mitigate it altogether- or at least to a measurable extent.
flyin solo, post: 394361, member: 8089 wrote: does it not seem like it could be a position to potentially, in whatever level of significance, elevate the minimum acceptable standards- at least of some select number of practitioners? may well be a pipe dream, but if one can artfully and slowly implement a consistent and rigorous set of demands by way of comments and redlines from the de facto buyer's end of the equation... i guess i see the possibility to positively affect the quality of product being produced.
What I think that will turn into is "Mean old reviewer at title company is nit-picking this one to death. We need to find another title agent." Economics are the main reason why there are so many bad surveys floating around. There already is a checklist in the form of the Minimum Technical Standards that are routinely violated by the same El Cheapo Rapido firms that you will be dealing with. The failure rates of El Cheapo Rapido surveys are so high that it isn't just a matter of tweaking this or twerking that.
The local title company has been sold three times in the last two years. Yours may be rock solid, but it's something to keep in mind. Every time ownership changes, goals and expectations change.
kent and bovine:
don't see either of those as an issue. these guys aren't going anywhere and they're not losing their piece of this particular pie. like i said, i wouldn't have even considered this offer if it were from anyone else.
kent- if you've ever been to the 15th floor of the frost tower that should be a pretty good clue.
My only objection to an RPLS being on the final review stage of whether a drawing or property description is or is not acceptable would be opening that ethical can of worms again.
Does your approval of another surveyor's work place you in the position of being liable for that surveyor's work.
Before I got my ducks in a row and had my ego stroked into some level that would eventually come back around and bite me in the arse,
I would have a conversation with a BOR member and get their legal ramifications of the deal.
Been there and done that lawyer trick question in a board room situation and was glad I was prepared or stuff could have been very messy.
End result was rookie party chief left owner of Dallas Cowboys and his legal team chewing sod afterwards and I saved my boss' reputation.
In the end, it would depend upon what capacity your approval process places you.
Are you a licensed surveyor in your job title and job description or a mere fact checker wielding a red pencil.
good luck
flyin solo, post: 394339, member: 8089 wrote: let's say something novel develops. like: a local title agency- one with whom you've done a ton of work over the past two decades, one you know to be the absolute cream of the crop in terms of expertise, diligence, and market share in the local "big" project market- has decided they want to try something new and hire a surveyor to develop a review system and process for all the surveys that come through their door. their theory being that they will get better expertise in survey matters and better response from surveyors if the surveyors get comments back from a fellow licensee.
let's say you get a phone call from one of your many contacts there. they want you. they'll interview people, but the job is yours if you'll say yes. they'll pay you what you've made the last couple years. it's hourly. anything over 40 is OT.
let's say your business- the one you own- is killing it. you're busier than you can handle. so busy you can't find the time to wade through the resumes and interview people you need to hire to help. so busy you can't hire the person to do the resume wading and interviewing for you. so busy you get phone calls on sunday mornings and miss your kids' soccer games here and there and your wife is regularly complaining now about how it'd be nice if you were at dinner more often.
what would you do?
That exact thing happened here about 15 years ago. Most reputable Title Co. in town hired a very reputable surveyor to review surveys. They parted company after about 2 years because the Title Co. was in the risk-taking business while the surveyor was not.
Jim in AZ, post: 394369, member: 249 wrote: That exact thing happened here about 15 years ago. Most reputable Title Co. in town hired a very reputable surveyor to review surveys. They parted company after about 2 years because the Title Co. was in the risk-taking business while the surveyor was not.
i've searched for similar scenarios and have come up empty handed. i know of a few surveyors being employed by law firms in similar capacities, and i know first american is hiring on some kind of national level, but in what capacity i don't know.
and i'm perfectly willing to accept that it may not be a lifetime marriage. seems like it could be worth a try at least, though. i mean, insofar as if you subscribe to the idea of "if somebody is gonna try it, might as well be me."
flyin solo, post: 394367, member: 8089 wrote: kent- if you've ever been to the 15th floor of the frost tower that should be a pretty good clue.
Well, you know that Commonwealth is owned by Fidelity, right? That should be an answer in itself.
Actually, I was wrong. Heritage apparently writes policies on a number of national underwriters, with First American the leader.
