I had a chance yesterday to run an R10-2 beside an R10-2 upgraded to the R12 engine. The base was in a less than optimal location (I couldn't have run a static session there 20 yrs ago) and I saw similar results. We ran both rovers side by side in several locations in a deep hollow and the upgraded R10-2 consistently used 4-5 more sats in the solution and almost always made it through a 3 min Observed Control Point (OCP) reading without resetting due to poor precisions where as even the R10-2 would reset several times due to poor precisions before it would finally get a full set. It's surreal to be in a deep hollow with your base in a high obstruction/multipath environment and be getting 12-15 sats on an R10-2 and 16-21 sats on the upgraded R10-2. Both units were hitting previous OCP's at .04'h and .08v which is insane given the environment.
Maybe its me reading between the lines but I assume they are competing with JAVAD now on working in the trees.
Maybe its me reading between the lines but I assume they are competing with JAVAD now on working in the trees.
I would say it's the other way around. I've ran the R10 against the LS, had both units at the same company. The LS has no clear advantage in canopy in all of my uses.
My big interest in all of this was to get woods check points for Lidar. When we do a large Lidar project (typically 10,000 sq miles or more) there are X number of calibration points, and a much larger number of check points. For instance we are working on a project right now that covers 20,695 sq miles. There are a total of 907 ground control points, broken down as follows:
288 calibration points
364 bare earth check points
33 woods check points
218 brush/crops check points
Usually there are more woods points, but this area is pretty barren, mostly crops and grasslands.?ÿ
Until this year we would set a pair of intervisible points with GNSS, then traverse in to the woods. After my testing, we now just set a base in the open nearby by VRS and do a GNSS observation (RTK) in to the woods. Saves having to take a total station, extra tripods, etc on the trip which is usually by commercial air. Also quicker and cleaner in the computations (all GNSS).
As Gavin said it all became more feasible as the manufacturers added constellations and frequencies over the last couple of years. I had tried this back when we were just using R8's (GPS/GLONASS) and it just wasn't accurate enough, not enough SV's, lots of problems trying to initialize, etc.?ÿ
I just got my R10-2 upgrades to an R12 back from the dealer. I won??t get a chance to test it till mid next week. Can??t wait!
the R10-2 was already AMAZING in canopy, better then I ever thought imaginable. If the R12 is any kind of upgrade then it really opens up a lot of possibilities.?ÿ
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I got a chance to demo the R12 last Thursday, and I was completely blown away. I wasn't in trees, I was in between large aluminum walled buildings in as difficult conditions (blocked sky, multi-path) as I could create and the ability to get a repeatable fix was mind boggling. We weren't even running off a base, we were running off the multi-constellation VRS mount point. It's not an exaggeration to say that I was amazed.
Trimble also released a version 2017.24 of Access so that you can run the R12 with TSC3 / Yuma II collectors. I had to do a quick software upgrade on a Yuma II in order to do the demo, all my dealer had with him was one R12 receiver.
This is from the R-12 website:
The new state-of-the-art Trimble ProPoint GNSS technology allows for flexible signal management, which helps mitigate the effects of signal degradation and provides a GNSS constellation-agnostic operation. In head-to-head testing with the Trimble R10-2 in challenging GNSS environments such as near and among trees, and built environments, the Trimble R12 receiver performed more than 30 percent better across a variety of factors, including time to achieve survey precision levels, position accuracy and measurement reliability.
I know the R10-2 is upgradeable to R-12-like performance, but my R10s are already blowing my mind where they'll get fixes.?ÿ 30%?ÿ better (edit: "more than") pretty much means 95% GNSS at this point.?ÿ We still do some indoors work, and work right up against buildings - where even if the GNSS will fix it's not worth the liability given the accuracy needed.
According to my dealer, an upgraded R10 model 2 is the SAME as an R12. Right now (until the end of the year?) the R10 Model 2 is 25% discounted....add on $1500 for the upgrade and it is a good deal compared to a new R12. Both of my current R10's are model 1's, not upgradable. Ordered a new R10 Model 2 today. I think they are clearing out all of the R10 model 2's.?ÿ
devils advocate: What is the sunset date on updates etc for the r10-2 vs the r12 ?
I've got an r12 ordered I want to be set for the next 5 years
I've been using our R10-2's for several months now.?ÿ I would not say I'm blown away by their performance but I am happy with it.?ÿ I had been using Topcon Hiper II's and they did have Glonass. ?ÿ
One thing I am surprised about is the high power radio that came with the system.?ÿ I often use our system as base/rover with a 35 watt radio.?ÿ The salesman said just run it at 25 watts.?ÿ I expected to end up turning up to 35 watts put so far no need to.?ÿ I am working on a project that covers a large area and our old Topcon running at 35 watts had a little trouble on the edges of the project getting radio link where the Trimble gets it no problems.?ÿ It also is a lot easier on the base radio battery and doesn't run it down as fast.
Good question...but I am 60 and may not have too much longer left to survey...
All of my receivers except for a new Alloy are not getting updates anymore-2 4700's, 2 5700's, R7, 2 R8's, 2 R10 model 1's, all of which work just fine except for the week number issue on the 4700's and 5700's but I developed a fix for that. Not sure about my R10's, I don't remember what the issue is there but something is no longer supported for those R10's because they are model 1 rev1 (rather than rev2). I believe no more warranties and maybe no more firmware updates, but I think I recently was able to update the firmware so not real sure about that
sounds like maybe your Topcon radio was running at a slower baud rate, hence more transmit time per packet? There are two baud rates...receiver to radio and then over-the-air. The higher the over-the-air rate is set the less power it uses.?ÿ
If I am using a base like the R10, with a decent internal radio, I really like running the external radio as a repeater. Not only does it boost range, but sometimes base control points are not always in the best location for radio connection.
Depends on the terrain of course, but it is nice to drop the repeater closer to the center of the job or on a ridgeline to get reception in the next valley over.
I too have rarely boosted to 35W. It doesn't help at all when working in/around canopy and can run pretty hot in the summer...
I upgraded both of my R10-2's to the R12 engine last Thursday morning.?ÿ Then I went to a job that I had been avoiding for several weeks.?ÿ Even given the exceptional performance I've seen from the R10-2's in heavy canopy over the spring and summer this site looked like Kryptonite.
It's located in mountainous terrain near the Great Smoky Mountains Nation Park.?ÿ The mountains are steep and the hollows are deep and crisscrossed with creeks.?ÿ The area is heavily forested with a mix of mature hardwoods and evergreens with an under canopy of?ÿ mountain laurel and rhododendron.?ÿ Toss in the rocks and random loose boulders and you've got a fun day at the office.
The piece that I'm working on is roughly 300' north-south and 1000' east-west.?ÿ The west edge is in a deep hollow along the center of a dirt/gravel road and the eastern edge is a thousand feet up the ridge but about five hundred feet below the top.?ÿ It was platted in 1978 by a surveyor whose reputation I'm unfamiliar with but his map works well for a map of that vintage in this area.?ÿ It was retraced by a local legend about eight years ago and the property owner supplied a copy of his map but told me that all of the monuments on the western edge had been destroyed by recent road maintenance and utility work. He also mentioned that adjoiner to the east had recently cut in a road up on the ridge above our line.?ÿ A site recon before Thanksgiving revealed that east corners on the ridge had survived and that there were two points-on-line near the west property line remaining from the last retracement survey.?ÿ I was looking at a 2,600 foot loop up the ridge and back and given the terrain and me being solo I was beginning to question some of my life choices.?ÿ I told the client that it wasn't going to be cheep in either case but I might be able to save a good bit of time if I could establish control down in the hollow (where he wants the house) and use GPS to lock down the eastern corners on the ridge above.
My base was deep in the hollow with high ridges to the north, east, and west. This photo was taken looking southwest toward the best sky view I had.?ÿ The base is mid-frame in roughly the center of the cleared area.?ÿ
These are at the northwest corner looking south (left photo) and north (center photo) and on the left is a shot of the DC showing 24 birds with H: 0.02' & V: 0.04'.
These are at the southwest corner. The first four are the rough cardinal directions with a pretty steep tilt upward to get a bit of sky in each frame.?ÿ The fifth photo is at the rover looking vertical and last but not least the DC showing 24 birds with H: 0.04' & V: 0.06'
This is the southeast corner.?ÿ The first three photos show the best of my "open" sky.?ÿ Note the high ridge covered with evergreens in the background of the rover and that the rover is about a foot from the tree trunk. The fourth photo is what the 180 deg downhill view looked like (all evergreens and tree tops) and the last photo is a vertical shot at the rover.?ÿ I didn't get a shot of the DC at this corner but it was tracking 20+ birds and the H had to be at or below 0.04' and the V at or below 0.09 for me to get through a 180 sec Observed Control Point without it resetting.?ÿ
The last bunch are at the northeast corner.?ÿ The first four are once again looking roughly north-east-south-west not sure if they're in order or not but you get the point (obstruction city).?ÿ The fifth photo is a sky view at the rover and the sixth is a shot of the DC with only 19 birds?ÿ with H: 0.02' and V:0.04'. I believe this was the fewest birds I got anywhere on site).
I located the pins on the ridge and the points-on-line in the hollow as Observed Control Points which in Trimble speak is basically a 3 minute static observation.?ÿ I oriented the survey to the two POL's in the hollow (a chistled x in a rock and a T-post about 300' apart) and then checked to the two pins on the ridge once I had located them.?ÿ I was hoping to be hand grenade close and figured that I'd have to re-rotate and evaluate once I had the points up top.?ÿ I was shocked to hit the southeast corner within 0.05' and the northeast corner within 0.07'.?ÿ It blows my mind that the old timers work was that tight the day he did it let alone after 8 years on the mountain with gravity, time, and big yellow machines nearby.?ÿ That I could locate and verify his work with GNSS in those conditions in about 3 hours start to finish is just astonishing.
Thanks for sharing the pics.?ÿ Sounds like the upgrade is worth the money.?ÿ
I just had a demo on R10 and R12's
There is a $1500 upgrade to the R10's that will make it a R12. Trimble Rep said he didn't know why Trimble didn't call the R10 model 1 and 2 R12's! Other than this upgrade he says though makes them R12's. Trimble is actually upgrading them free right now but I believe that is if you purchase a R10 its free I don't know what they would say in your situation.
Some photos of an RTK shot yesterday (2-2-2020)?ÿ using the R10 as a base
The R12 fixed on everything.
I've also used my R10-2's that have been upgraded to R12 software the last couple of days.?ÿ I'm pretty tough person to impress but the performance in a poor location is very impressive.?ÿ I'm also pretty happy Trimble provided the upgrade for free.
I have also just upgraded the firmware to the same as an R12 for free within Trimble Installation Manager. Just make sure you have v 5.44 before the upgrade:
