This may turn into a long story. In a recent thread I was asked about my association with Javad Ashjaee. It's a little more complicated (and perhaps interesting) than simply stating that I work for him. I'll explain as best I can and let you decide for yourself, if you care enough one way or another to read this entire post. I will say that I am biased, partly from personal investment in the project and partly from experience with the equipment, so that may be enough for some of you to know what you need to know.
I've been writing for American Surveyor magazine since about 2008. In the Spring of 2013, my editor, Marc Cheves, asked me to go on a trip to San Jose, California, for a product announcement. I had never traveled for the magazine before and was excited at the opportunity. I took my wife and daughter as this would surely be the only time I'd ever get the chance to travel to Silicon Valley. Beyond the travel opportunity, I was most excited that I would get to meet Javad Ashjaee. He has a storied reputation with development of precision GNSS technology dating all the way back to the 1980Ûªs with Trimble. So many of the advancements we have today came from his genius. It would be an understatement to say that I was feeling very insecure as the morning approached for our first meeting. Three days earlier I was needling through briars surrounding a chain link fence corner digging around the concrete base, looking for a 50-year-old number 3 rebar. What was I doing in the audience of a brilliant mind like Javad? I have no formal education. Everything I know has been built off of self-study following a very good high school education and learning from great mentors.
Javad was extremely hospitable. What was supposed to be a three-day trip to the West Coast turned in to a job offer. I politely declined, overwhelmed by the realization that I really didnÛªt have anything to offer. I was working for my dad at the time, and my loyalties were with him in that business. I was, at the time, also much more timid about business ventures and preferred to remain with what I knew as comfortable. Javad modified his request and asked if I would consult for him to develop the software that would run on his latest creation.
Seeing the LS for the first time, I was as skeptical as most were. I peppered him with questions. Why the all-in-one construction (no way to plug and play with a total station ÛÒ no way to raise the antenna overhead)? Why 864 channels with so few satellites comparatively? Wouldn't it be better to use an existing software? No need to reinvent the wheel. Most importantly, "Why are you asking me to help? I'm just a surveyor."
The answers came in time and I was convinced that the all-in-one construction is the future, while 2 meter poles with separate data collectors and rover heads will be the past. Like the ears of the big bad wolf in the story of Goldilocks, the 864 channels are better to hear with. The hardware needs good software. There were so many things he knew he could accomplish in his own software that he would never get from a third party. He and others suggested that I could add my insights to the development of the software and that even if the contribution was small, it would be further along than where it started.
The LS didn't actually exist at the time, the components were there, but the finished product had not been completely assembled yet. So I went home with the predecessor to the LS, the Triumph-VS. The VS software was difficult. I could see the effort in the software, but it was woefully inadequate for surveyors. I began writing to him about the philosophy of surveying, what surveyors needed and why. Then I began to recommend features. Javad told me that his team of software engineers was able to deliver results in hours and days instead of weeks and months. He was right. I would endure a frustrating day of testing on Saturday, write about my experience, send them the results and within a few days there would be a new version ready to test. I would test at night by flashlight and on Saturdays. I was compensated for my efforts but most importantly my requests were met with sincere interest. I've been using GNSS since 2000, but there is still quite a bit I don't know. In order to give good recommendations, I had to learn quite a bit as the need would arise. I would say that I'm one of very few land surveyors that really understands localizations/calibrations. I stayed away from them for years because I didn't fully understand them, but I had to immerse myself in the mechanics of localizations so that I could provide better assistance.
In November of 2013, Javad sent my wife and me to Moscow, Russia. Like most of the readers of the message board, I grew up in the Cold War era. I recall the drills hiding under desks as a child in case of a nuclear (nukeular) attack. Now I was sitting across a large board room table from men who grew up in the same era on the other side of the conflict. We talked for days about surveying and the needs of the software. I learned about their families and daily lives too. They are brilliant, every one of them. I love America, and particularly Texas, but I've learned through encounters with foreign nationals (both in the US and abroad) that people are people and all have a very high, intrinsic worth. These men speak Russian natively, but not in their meetings. In the meetings they speak English. They even take notes in English. They have a passion for science and geodesy and a real appreciation for excellence. Early on, before the receiver was released to the public and I was testing, there would be a particularly dysfunctional testing version. In frustration, I would gently chide them and they would respond with intense effort to resolve the issue within a few days, most of the time exceeding expectations.
We had routine conference calls (making allowance for the 8-hour time difference). I'd listen intensely as the long distance call and thick accents were at times challenging to discern. Through this we made a functional software to run on the new hardware. By Spring of 2014, the system was ready (both the LS rover and the new base receiver - the Triumph-2). My testing continued, still going at night by flashlight and on Saturdays. I made a few trips to San Jose to meet with Javad and a few friends, who shall remain anonymous. I've always appreciated the technical support from Carlson Software and Ashtech. No maintenance agreements or contracts, you call and they answer. I also had a very good experience in a similar way from a dealer I consider a personal friend, Mark Silver from Igage. I recommended to Javad that he find a few surveyors that had the skills to provide technical support to this new product similar to these companies. He responded enthusiastically and the so-called 5PLS team was born. I wasn't going to be a part of it, my contributions were almost to an end. I was only in this to carry them a little further than where they were when we met. I keep waiting for that time to come when I'm out of ideas or no longer of service to the project, but it hasn't come yet. The 5PLS team is composed of working surveyors (and one surveying professional engineer) who work in private practice and contract support services to Javad. None of them are employees of Javad GNSS, but are compensated for our time on a contract basis.
Javad later offered the team members sales opportunities. The team members would continue to be independent, but would be compensated by commission for any sales they generated. Javad offers a fixed price on his equipment - no suggested list price with some discount price, just the price. The commission is also fixed. This is a fairly new experience for me. IÛªm truly not a salesman. When I was a kid and the school would have the fundraisers selling cookies, I had two sales: my mother and grandmother. I havenÛªt really found that I need to sell the Triumph-LS. I demonstrate it and offer the best explanation of its operation as I can.
Continued...
All of these developments have come about over time. It's been difficult to put all of that in a concise signature line. I donÛªt know why, but Javad loves surveyors, and I can say that with all sincerity. I was in Arkansas a couple of weeks ago and there are surveyors that remember him coming to the University of Arkansas to set up a lab and provide instruction on GPS surveying. He responds directly to questions from surveyors on his message board and in email. He keeps pushing the envelope, developing new features and new ideas because he wants to produce the best possible solution to surveyors. I donÛªt know why, but he does.He has his detractors, but they donÛªt slow him down. His team of engineers is absolutely phenomenal and if my involvement ended tomorrow, the experience will always be in my mind one of the most profound of my life. I no longer fear the unknown. As God explained to Joshua, ÛÏEverywhere you step is yoursÛ. My new life philosophy is to get stepping.
I offer my statements about the Triumph-LS as a user with very special access behind the curtain. I can't tell you who makes the best RTK system. I try to avoid subjective statements like that because it's fairly meaningless to anyone who reads it. I do post findings from my personal experiences and testing. I ran a test for photogrammetry with the LS, I posted the actual findings. I ran a test to determine the accuracy of RTK, I posted my findings. I ran a test of the post processing results and I posted my actual findings.
I donÛªt really expect anyone to call me because of what they see on the message board here. I really donÛªt. IÛªm happy if someone does call, but I have no expectation of it. I have higher goals. How long before other manufacturers start promoting 5Hz broadcasting? Javad has always been at the forefront of new application and development. The response, historically, has been to minimize the concept and then duplicate it. The ultimate winner in that scenario is the Surveyor who sees his choices in equipment steadily improve in performance and features. How much longer until Topcon offers a field solution to post processing through the Magnet service? Or perhaps Leica or Trimble?
By talking about these things on this board, particularly in a way that transcends schoolyard arguments about whoÛªs dad can beat up the other kidÛªs dad, or which light beer taste better (the answer, by the way, is neither), we push the manufacturers to continually up their game. ThatÛªs good for all of us.
Shawn,
Nice story. So you are vested, paid employee of Javad. Congratulations. Sounds like fun.
The problem I see, is how does [USER=1]@Wendell[/USER] allow you to promote this product, while others are not allowed. At the same time you are gathering end user input for self promotion. You are are even promoting software that is still in beta testing. Clearly violating the rules of this board. I don't see any other vendors promoting there product either pre release, or after.
It would be great if other vendors did chine to tells of their up coming technology. But this is a violation of the board, there fore they do not.
I don't see where Shawn is an employee of Javad Enterprises, any more than we are employees of those who contract with us to place monuments at their property corners. Sharing information about what tools we used to perform that service and the tweaks we use to get the most out of them is a large part of the discussion on this board.
Shawn,
I applaud your passion for the product, and greatly appreciative of what direction Javad is steering the industry towards. Just need to either keep it within the rules, or else the rules of the board need to change.
Of this is [USER=1]@Wendell[/USER] s decision.
Sorry for the typos. I'm out of town using a droid phone.
OK, so Shawn is not an employee. But does get compensated from Javad.
I doubt that Shawn is pushing to sell anyone anything. Personally I would want to hear more about Javad and I may never ever consider buying his particular current product.
However, practically every one here that uses GPS is using a product that Javad designed. What is so amazing is that after designing a product that a profit making company has decided is the best possible in the world, Javad goes out and designs something better that is almost totally unrelated to how and what he did before. It boggles the mind to think "what then is coming next?"
One thing that Javad has done in his current venture is to query the user of how they would use it, which reminds me so much of what made Stanley Trent so popular.
Lee, please name what GPS product you are using that has no connection ever to Javad.
Paul in PA
Do not these products we are all using originate from HP ? (pre Javad era)
leegreen, post: 368215, member: 2332 wrote: Shawn,
Nice story. So you are vested, paid employee of Javad. Congratulations. Sounds like fun.
The problem I see, is how does [USER=1]@Wendell[/USER] allow you to promote this product, while others are not allowed. At the same time you are gathering end user input for self promotion. You are are even promoting software that is still in beta testing. Clearly violating the rules of this board. I don't see any other vendors promoting there product either pre release, or after.
It would be great if other vendors did chine to tells of their up coming technology. But this is a violation of the board, there fore they do not.
I recognize your freedom to come to whatever conclusion you may wish, Lee. I don't view myself as an employee of Javad any more than I am an employee of any of my clients. I have no rights as an employee, no paid vacation, sick level, medical insurance. I'm only assured payment for my last invoice. I've given you more detail about myself and my past three years than most might. I'm not ashamed of any of it. I think it's interesting, at least to me.
I've explained why I share what I have shared. These sorts of things are cutting edge and discussion of them propels the development of the tools we use. I would humbly offer that this is the worst place to advertise, if that's what you wish to call what I have done. Advertising typically doesn't allow for debate. You probably won't find any automakers opting for a panel discussion about who makes the best compact car during the next Super Bowl, complete with diehard fans of their competitors free to make point and counter-point to each statement. I come here and share the details of a test along with the results of the test. Any member of the forum can critique the scenario of my tests or the results, and frequently have, I might add.
So long as the criticism remains civil, I invite that challenge. The discussion improves my understanding and hopefully the understanding of those reading. It might perhaps improve the tools we use, provided manufacturers are paying attention. Lee, you seem to know people in the industry. Are they paying attention?
I have at times contemplated whether I have crossed the line regarding advertising. I'm sure I've walked right up to the edge. I don't want to abuse the site or those who participate. I've always valued your opinion, Lee, and I still do. When you shared your experience with the Sokkia GCX2 I thought it was great. The use of Bluetooth communication is an excellent idea. What does that feature allow? What are the limitations? Good luck getting answers to those questions in the slick pages of the magazines or the manufacturers websites, and often enough you'll be hard pressed to get it from the sales people who seldom use these things in the wild. Clearly long-range Bluetooth for RTK is not for every job, but I'm sure that it has some great application in certain areas. What are those applications? Only knowledgeable users can answer those questions. Is it near to advertising to describe that? Possibly. Will someone come in and complain that the limitations of Bluetooth would preclude them from being able to break down a section? Yes, probably. And then you'll explain that it's really not intended for that, but that you could use the cellular corrections with the GCX2 to accomplish that. At that point it quits being an advertorial and turns into a discussion. It's a healthy discussion in my opinion, and it's a discussion that has very few venues to take place.
I see no promotion of Javad in Shawns post. Just his story of glimpsing behind the curtain of the undisputed leader of GPS technology.
Javad really needs to work on promotion better (at least here on the west coast). Ask any surveyor out there, and they have read, seen, and heard enough about Javad to know it is the best. The likelihood however, is that the information available is dumbfoundingly complex, and few surveyor's have actually had Javad equipment in their hands.
He actually sounds like a surveyor in that regard, so focused on perfecting his craft and making a better product, that he completely fails at actually running a business.
Paul,
I never said what Javad is doing is not related to my flavor of equipment. It is pretty clear what I own. I have always said it would be great to combine certain parts of different vendors equipment to make a frankinstien end product.
For example example. I use both AutoCad and MicroStation daily on the same project, because they have a set of tools that work better than the other for certain tasks.
I am only implying that it appears ( to me) that the rules of this board are bending for some, and not for others.
Paul in PA, post: 368223, member: 236 wrote: I doubt that Shawn is pushing to sell anyone anything. Personally I would want to hear more about Javad and I may never ever consider buying his particular current product.
However, practically every one here that uses GPS is using a product that Javad designed. What is so amazing is that after designing a product that a profit making company has decided is the best possible in the world, Javad goes out and designs something better that is almost totally unrelated to how and what he did before. It boggles the mind to think "what then is coming next?"
One thing that Javad has done in his current venture is to query the user of how they would use it, which reminds me so much of what made Stanley Trent so popular.
Lee, please name what GPS product you are using that has no connection ever to Javad.
Paul in PA
I'd say he's the Heinrich Wild of our day, complete with an origin story that begins at a world renown manufacturer, Zeiss, creating his own company, Wild, leaving his namesake company under duress of the corporate structure and continuing to develop newer and better theodolites and optics for competitor Kern. Everywhere Wild went, he drove innovation. I have a Kern DKM1, 5 second theodolite. It fits in a coat pocket. Had Wild not pushed the edge, we'd never have seen the Zeiss Th1, Wild T2, Kern DKM1, etc. We'd have been able to measure angles (it's not as though he invented the theodolite), but it would have been much different, much worse without him.
Shawn,
I have no direct contact with vendors, and they certainly don't listen to me. I purchase what I can afford from local dealer, learning how to use at my own expense and share it here. Occasionally the dealer points his clients in my direction. I often explain the good and the bad about products making me a terrible sales person, and pissed them off more than once. Even at times pissing off the vendors to the point where I am certain they now follow me on this board. I'm not sure if that is listening on their part or just monitoring me. I have no horse in this race. Perhaps a bit envious that other vendors don't seem to share the forward thinking and input from end user's, as Javad seems to do.
leegreen, post: 368232, member: 2332 wrote: Shawn,
I have no direct contact with vendors, and they certainly don't listen to me. I purchase what I can afford from local dealer, learning how to use at my own expense and share it here. Occasionally the dealer points his clients in my direction. I often explain the good and the bad about products making me a terrible sales person, and pissed them off more than once. Even at times pissing off the vendors to the point where I am certain they now follow me on this board. I'm not sure if that is listening on their part or just monitoring me. I have no horse in this race. Perhaps a bit envious that other vendors don't seem to share the forward thinking and input from end user's, as Javad seems to do.
This thread got me curious about "The Rules"....
Where the heck are they? I can't find them.
As for the whole discussion about vendor representation and pitching stuff here, I think both Shawn and you, Lee, have stood out in the way you both have been extremely knowledgeable and helpful about the equipment you use and are familiar with; have made occasional references to suppliers, but all in all, it's been very helpful (and welcome IMO).
There are others here who by comparison, are more "blatant", but in my opinion, as long as it's not "in your face" commerce, I don't mind reading opinions about this equipment or that. Perhaps Wendell can occasionally eyeball those situations and gently suggest those folks buy a banner ad instead.:-)
My $.02.
The rules can be found here:
https://surveyorconnect.com/help/terms
I think what Shawn has posted has been helpful opinion on a product that he is very familiar with. Its one of the many positives that come out of this website. I'm all for it. I would recommend that something be added to the signature line for those posting in this manner disclaiming any such ties to a company.
Slight hijack here (I apologize Shawn, I am enjoying your story).
How can we expect this forum to even exist, let alone have any rules that we can expect any moderator to enforce when WE can only come up with $352 per month in support?
Personally, my math shows that if every registered member here paid only $20 per year then we might come close to some reasonable compensation to W & A for putting up with all of us.
Rules?
Full Disclosure: My postings outside of normal work hours are often influenced by my association with Maker's Mark and/or Tito's Handmade Vodka.
Thank you for the post, it was interestring and informative.
James Fleming, post: 368272, member: 136 wrote: Full Disclosure: My postings outside of normal work hours are often
influencedENHANCED by my association with Maker's Mark and/or Tito's Handmade Vodka.
I fixed it for ya.
also, Thanks for the posting Mr. Billings.
Steve
I must say that this, along with a few other posts, does in my opinion constitute advertising. I understand that you are trying to share your experiences with everyone and you truly believe in the quality of the product but this does not change the fact that you receive compensation from JAVAD.