Alabama studying Associates degree and 2 years experience for Land Surveyor license

Colorado recently had to roll back their forward thinking about the 4yr ABET degree requirements. They reinstituted a 2year option for people who have enough experience and augment it with the appropriate classes approved by the board.

We are circling the drain.

What's wrong with letting the free market correct this?

If the supply of Licensed Surveyors gets low enough, compensation will rise and cause the demand to be filled.?ÿ It seems counterproductive to diminish the skill and knowledge of the newly minted license holder, thereby reducing the public's respect for same.

It's just not that long ago that forums like this were rife with complaints about wages and perceptions of surveyors!

I turn down work almost daily, those college graduate licensed surveyors need to hurry up and get here.?ÿ

In the late '90s Oregon had a 4-year-ABET-degree-or-forget-about-it law in place.?ÿ I know because I wrote on the last opportunity before it went in to effect. That law didn't last long. The roll back was a 12 year experience only requirement (or 4yrs ABET plus 4 yrs experience), which was an increase from the 8 year experience requirement the preceded it.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ

2+2 seems a little light to me but it would depend on how hard the test, and how thorough the follow up board supervision, is.?ÿ?ÿ

Reciprocity will be the issue for those who need multiple States.

@chuckh_02

Nail>>>>Head

Growing up in the Ocala, Gainesville area of Florida, I can remember the surveying company owners being very well known and prominent men in the area. From about 1930 through about the early1960's each town had just 2 established surveying companies. Each of these companies had an office building (owned, not rented) that rivaled the offices of attorneys and other professionals. They had secretaries, and they had nice trucks and equipment that gave the appearance of a successful business.

Then, around 1970 things started to change. Hundreds of new surveyors were being licensed each year. It seemed like each year that went by new surveyors were hanging out his/her shingle everywhere you turned. So many of these new surveyors just a few months earlier had been earning 4 or 5 dollars an hour somewhere as a party chief.

After getting licensed, many of these people thought they had hit the jack pot if they could knock down $600 weekly gross. They could get financing to buy an old used truck and a transit, and they were in business working out of the house.

In a town near me there was a newly minted ƒ??licensed surveyorƒ? who took out ads in local ƒ??shopperƒ? rags advertising to do land surveying for under half of what the older established companies had been charging. This new surveyor answered the call when the local county school board was advertising for a ƒ??county school board surveyorƒ? who would be under contract to do all the school board work for the next year. He inked an hourly rate contract for around 50% of what the school board had been paying one of the established surveying businesses in town. The owner of the now former county school board surveyor told me about seeing his competition working on a large topo project. He said some days this new surveyor would have his wife out with him, and other days his retired father. The new surveyor, by saving the county thousands of dollars, effectively hurt the surveying community by locking out money that would have otherwise come into our profession.

Some see nothing wrong with charging low rates, after all it is a free market, but when you are doing this you are helping to keep new blood from entering the profession as you simply do not have the money to hire young, smart, energetic, going places types of young people. Also, while charging wage earner fees for furnishing professional products, you are helping to ensure that upcoming young, smart, energetic, going places types of young people, are unlikely to view a career in surveying as something they would want to study and pursue especially when they see all the magnificent impressive real estate company office buildings while the local surveyor is either working in a dump or out of his/her house...and driving an old beat up truck.

Prior to the year 2000, Florida was licensing 200-300 new surveyors each year. For the past several years Florida has been licensing around 50 per year. If Florida had not gone to the 4 year degree requirement back in the 1990's, we would today likely have 5000 or more licensed surveyors, rather than the 2,555 (number is from the year 2020) (92% are over the age of 40, with 47% over 60) current number. Today we see fees beginning to go up. Finally. If Florida had licensed an additional 2500 surveyors would we now have also finally began to see fees raise? What evidence exists that would lead anyone to believe that?

My position? Keep the degree requirement in place. Let the free market speak. As compensation rises private practice surveying will become attractive to young, smart, energetic, going places types of young people who will be able to retire while still young enough to enjoy retirement rather than still having to slog through the swamps and woods till they're 90 (or they die earlier).

Otherwise, just give up with licensing altogether like Florida was considering, and let anyone with the equipment low ball the cheapest price.

Posted by: @chuckh_02

What's wrong with letting the free market correct this?

If the supply of Licensed Surveyors gets low enough, compensation will rise and cause the demand to be filled.?ÿ It seems counterproductive to diminish the skill and knowledge of the newly minted license holder, thereby reducing the public's respect for same.

It's just not that long ago that forums like this were rife with complaints about wages and perceptions of surveyors!

Amen.

I recently bought an old house and have had to do major HVAC, plumbing, and electrical work. All of the field leads said that it is hell trying to find people right now. I idly asked the HVAC guy if they would cut qualifications to get more folks on board. He looked pretty shocked and said something to the effect of "Hell no, it's both required and makes us the best at what we do, and besides, we're making more money now than we were even in the past year! At the very least, we're hiring sharp people and sending them to get certifications and training on the company dime."

I paid quite a bit more for their time and efforts than we typically charge for comparable time on survey field services.

Meanwhile, we hired a new crew chief, a sharp guy with a lot of talent, and requested a new field equipment package for he and his crew. Denied - word was to use an old loaner set that occasionally goes on the fritz.

I wonder what that chief's first impression of us was when he arrived and got 10-15 year old gear.

Posted by: @mightymoe

I turn down work almost daily, those college graduate licensed surveyors need to hurry up and get here.

To steal a phrase from a classic movie, "If you offer it [good compensation, benefits, and mentorship] they will come."

Posted by: @i-ben-havin

My position? Keep the degree requirement in place.

I'm all for upgrading the quality of education of new surveyors. But I'm not hot for degree requirements. It puts too much power in the hands of university administrators, who know nothing of the surveying profession.?ÿ It amounts to state boards, and the members of the?ÿ profession itself, trying to fob off their responsibilities.?ÿ Upgrade the testing and disciplining. University graduates are just as capable of being f'ing idiots as anybody else.?ÿ

ƒ??Which would have advanced the most at the end of a monthƒ??the boy who had made his own jackknife from the ore which he had dug and smelted, reading as much as would be necessary for thisƒ??or the boy who had attended the lectures on metallurgy at the Institute in the meanwhile, and had received a Rodgers' penknife from his father? Which would be most likely to cut his fingers?... To my astonishment I was informed on leaving college that I had studied navigation!ƒ??why, if I had taken one turn down the harbor I should have known more about it. Even the poor student studies and is taught only political economy, while that economy of living which is synonymous with philosophy is not even sincerely professed in our colleges. The consequence is, that while he is reading Adam Smith, Ricardo, and Say, he runs his father in debt irretrievably.ƒ??ÿ

Thoreau, Walden, 1850s.

?ÿ

I'm against a 4 year degree, but lowering standards just to fill the ranks isn't the way to go.

I totally agree with what Rover said above.?ÿ If the money is there, more young people will discover this profession/trade/line of work/etc, and will look at it as a real job, with good pay and opportunity.

?ÿ

Posted by: @norman-oklahoma

Upgrade the testing and disciplining.

This exactly.?ÿ Smart, motivated people should have non-university options to enter the profession.?ÿ I took the 4+4 route, and I still think it is best for most.?ÿ However, other options should exist, and a 4-year-degree does not a surveyor make.?ÿ The test should be hard as hell, and the experience closely documented.

That being said, I'm a pragmatist on this point, not an idealist.?ÿ Whatever brings stability and high incomes to the profession has my vote.

My rates are probably a little bit higher than anyone around.?ÿ But, I pick my jobs from the many offered.?ÿ It is when you must take every job offered to keep your cash flow up in the short term that you are most likely to cut prices.

The top person in the firm needs to be far more than a surveyor.?ÿ All those great skills go to waste when the top dog is working for chainman wages.?ÿ That is, effectively what happens too many times.

@chuckh_02 Because there are licensing requirements at all means it is not a free market situation.?ÿ The government has intervened and created a scarcity that was not as noticeable before degree requirements (although was still there and complained about).

I wonder if Senator Jones would do the same for doctors (MD).?ÿ It is more difficult to become an MD in the U.S. than in some other countries (based on the same idea of education required).?ÿ In some countries the undergraduate degree is not required prior to entering medical school - the parts needed for undergrad are worked in as part of the medical program.?ÿ So, instead of 8 years minimum, you could be a doctor in 5-6 years.

And it seems like scheduling with a doctor is often times as far or further out than even the surveyor's schedules in my area.

New York Requirements - recently updated to a 4 year degree with some other options.
??7206-a. Requirements for a license as a professional land surveyor.

1. To qualify for a license as a professional land surveyor, an applicant shall fulfill the following requirements:
   1. Application: file an application with the department;
   2. Education: have received an education, including a bachelor's or higher degree based on a program in land surveying, in accordance with the commissioner's regulations;
   3. Experience: Have practical experience satisfactory to the department and in accordance with the commissioner's regulations;
   4. Examination: pass an examination satisfactory to the board and in accordance with the commissioner's regulations;
   5. Age: be at least twenty-one years of age;
   6. Citizenship or immigration status: be a United States citizen or an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States;
   7. Character: be of good moral character as determined by the department; and
   8. Fees: pay a fee of one hundred thirty-five dollars to the department for an initial license, and a fee of two hundred ten dollars for each triennial registration period.
2. In lieu of the degree requirements specified in paragraph (2) of subdivision one of this section, an associate's degree in land surveying, or an associate's degree or higher in engineering, math, or related science with credits in land surveying acceptable to the department.

1. 2-a. For admittance to the fundamentals of surveying examination, the applicant shall fulfill the education, experience, and examination requirements in accordance with the commissioner's regulations. Upon the successful completion of the examination, an identification card as an "intern land surveyor" shall be issued by the department. The fee for examination qualification and identification card as an "intern land surveyor" shall be seventy dollars.
2. *2-b. In lieu of the degree and experience requirements specified in paragraphs two and three of subdivision one of this section, eight years of practical experience in work satisfactory to the department may be accepted, provided that each full year of college study in engineering or land surveying satisfactory to the department may at the discretion of the department be accepted in lieu of one year of the required eight years of experience.
   * NB Repealed April 3, 2029

??68.4 Professional study of land surveying.

1. To meet the professional study requirement for licensure, the applicant shall present evidence of:
   1. possession of a bachelor's degree in land surveying or the equivalent from a program approved by the department for professional licensure purposes and four years of land surveying experience acceptable to the State Board; or
   2. completion of an approved secondary course of study; and
      1. for those applying prior to September 1, 1987, the equivalent of six years of land surveying experience acceptable to the board, provided that each complete year of study in a land surveying program approved by the department for professional licensure purposes may be accepted in lieu of one year of such experience to a maximum of two years; and
      2. for those applying on or after September 1, 1987, the equivalent of eight years of land surveying experience acceptable to the board, provided that each complete year of study in a land surveying program approved by the department for professional licensure purposes may be accepted in lieu of one year of such experience to a maximum of four years.
2. To meet the professional study requirement for certification as an intern land surveyor, the applicant shall present evidence of:
   1. possession of a bachelor's degree in land surveying or the equivalent from a program approved by the department for professional licensure purposes; or
   2. completion of an approved secondary course of study; and
      1. for those applying prior to September 1, 1987, the equivalent of six years of land surveying experience acceptable to the board, provided that each complete year of study in a land surveying program approved by the department for professional licensure purposes may be accepted in lieu of one year of such experience, to a maximum of two years; and
      2. for those applying on or after September 1, 1987, the equivalent of eight years of land surveying experience acceptable to the board, provided that each complete year of study in a land surveying program approved by the department for professional licensure purposes may be accepted in lieu of one year of such experience, to a maximum of four years.

Posted by: @frozennorth

This exactly.?ÿ Smart, motivated people should have non-university options to enter the profession.?ÿ I took the 4+4 route, and I still think it is best for most.?ÿ However, other options should exist, and a 4-year-degree does not a surveyor make

(In my home state) When there was a non-degree option, there were a few more people taking the exam than after the degree requirement, but the pass rate was sometimes as low as in the low 30% range.?ÿ Since the degree requirement a few less applicants take the exam (and that number has been slowly working it's way back up), but the pass rate is now in the low to mid 70% range.?ÿ So we end up with either 30% of 20 people or 70% of 10 people for about the same numbers entering the profession.

Being one of those people who can easily pass a standardized exam, I very much agree with Norman's idea of upgrading the testing.?ÿ Because some of that 30% were just lucky (AND I MIGHT HAVE BEEN ONE OF THEM).?ÿ Now, at least the 70%+ passing should be passing due to some knowledge instead of lucky guessing on sections of the exam, that they have no practical experience in, and they shouldn't be sitting for their 20th (exaggeration) go at the exam.

While I know that the Ky. Board looks pretty closely at the experience presented, they can not dedicate a full investigation into every minute of the individual's reported experience.?ÿ With a degree requirement (AND experience required as well), there should be some level of consistency in at least the education part.?ÿ Neither a 4-year degree nor 8 years of experience a surveyor makes, but one is easier to have expectations of verifiable exposure to required topics.?ÿ Whether the information was taken in will still vary by individual.

I started my career in British Columbia, where there are very few licensed surveyors because the standards have always been very high.?ÿ It just means that the typical BCLS will have quite a few technicians working under them.

Lowering the standards to become an LS in Alabama will not address the basic problem of their being a shortage of?ÿ people entering the field. It might tend to have exactly the opposite effect because of increased downward pricing pressure.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ

Just this past session, in Kentucky, a bill was proposed to lower the degree requirement to include an Associate's degree.?ÿ It did not make it out of the committee on committees to be assigned anywhere for review.?ÿ So it died off for the time.?ÿ It may come up again.

As I understand it, it was brought up because an engineer in the state was either having a hard time hiring a PLS on staff or having a hard time getting survey work scheduled with a PLS.?ÿ So that person goes to their local representative who then sponsors the bill.?ÿ The thing I find silly about the situation is that we have been in an UNBELIEVABLE busy time the past few years.?ÿ Busier than I've seen in decades.?ÿ Every profession involving land or construction seems to be booked farther out than usual.?ÿ When this hectic time passes, we'll be back to being able to deal with projects in a more timely manner and life will go on.?ÿ I even presented a course at the KSPE conference a couple of weeks ago and everyone I spoke with was extremely busy.?ÿ So does that mean that if they can't turn around an engineering project within what I consider a reasonable time we should go back to allowing graduates of tech programs in civil engineering to become PEs (which was allowed in the 80s)?

My questions on reducing education requirements would be:?ÿ What good is reducing the licensure requirements when there are already a shortage of people willing to work as technicians??ÿ Would a path that required a 2-year degree and 10+ years of experience really be the path that makes a difference in the number of licensees (because it seems like I kept hearing about the dwindling numbers way back when I first started - pre any degree requirement)?

Posted by: @norman-oklahoma

It puts too much power in the hands of university administrators, who know nothing of the surveying profession.?ÿ It amounts to state boards, and the members of the?ÿ profession itself, trying to fob off their responsibilities.?ÿ

I get that no one wants to cede power to unknowledgeable administrators, but this just doesn't make sense. Why are we so special compared to other professions?

Besides, that's why there are requirements for those teaching survey-specific courses to be licensed, and why advisory boards made up of currently practicing professionals work with department leadership to guide the program and keep curricula relevant.

?ÿ

Posted by: @norman-oklahoma

Upgrade the testing and disciplining.

I agree, this needs to happen regardless of the future of degree programs.

?ÿ

Posted by: @norman-oklahoma

Thoreau, Walden, 1850s.

Eh, Thoreau went to Harvard and his writings directly benefited from all the courses he took on philosophy and rhetoric, he was just too cheap to pay for the physical degree.?ÿ