Advice for an incoming GIS student

Learn map projections and plane coordinate systems pat.

Learn to program in Python.

Understand the differences between "resource grade" and "survey grade" gps systems and their uses.

Don't get a degree which has "technology" in the title.

Avoid the "planning" track in gis departments. Learn mapping, remote sensing, and data base management.

Good Luck!

GIS has a lot to offer surveyors and vice versa.

Concur with Carl Zeiss re projections, datums etc.
I'd suggest an understanding of how one gets from field work to the computer model, in real hands on experience, is invaluable.
Learn about grid/ ground differences in a practical way and the method of collection and the relative accuracies of those collection methods.

Mandy as in many areas these days I encounter 2 types of academia.
Ones who 'know it all' (have the degree) and yet obviously know little in practical application and those who 'know it all' but don't exhibit that in their approach to things, and particularly those around them.
Here the former get tagged 'University smart #holes'.

The former can be very difficult to work with and are probably more prone to stuffing things up as they get left to their own devices.
The latter gain acceptance and engaged into everyday stream of life skills related to their vocation.
I say this kindly as you asked about better communication/education.
This is definitely a two way thing and I hope you can work with someone who will share their knowledge with you and accept your knowledge and input.
We can only be the better for such interaction.

Mandy, Good morning, and nice post. You said masters program, so maybe you could tell us about your undergrad experience? I would suggest that at some time, you spend some time with a survey firm that provides GIS data to see how they integrate the two.

Andy.

I see GIS and land surveying, at least when it comes to land boundaries, at two opposite ends of the same spectrum. GIS is the big picture map of it all and how it fits together. Land surveying deals with the individual pieces of the map.

What the world wants GIS do do it put it all together perfectly in this easily available map with all the data available fast and cheap. Well the record of land parcels, at least in the mathematical sense is a mess. You can't take a bunch of imperfect and incorrectly mathematical pieces of a puzzle and get them to fit together in perfect mathematical precision. Even some of the mathematically perfect descriptions don't precisely describe where the boundaries are actually established on the ground. Add to that that society doesn't either have the resources or is unwilling to expend the resources to sort out where boundaries are established on the ground (according to the law) and then precisely map them and there is the big divide from the GIS and land surveying perspective. Everyone wants the big perfect map but nobody wants to pay to sort it out.

I think there are both GIS folks and land surveyors that see the issues and both want the maps to be done and be accurate. They need to join forces and get the funding to see it done right. The GIS technology for mapping and access to data is great, we have a powerful tool. Getting the correct data into the system is not so easy, requires a huge legal input which can't be sorted out with some programmable algorithm. I'm not sure there are even enough boundaries experts which the knowledge of boundary law to even do the task in a short time period. Hopefully the GIS and land survey folks will come together to find solutions and not oppose each other and a solution with come forth.

> So, if you could advise a "GIS Professional-to-be" on how to think about/study/enhance/respect the profession of surveying, what would you say?
Here is what you shouldn't do - ask for a surveyors opinion at the 11th hour on a weekend night, then check out of the conversation.

> Here is what you shouldn't do - ask for a surveyors opinion at the 11th hour on a weekend night, then check out of the conversation.

It's quite possible, probably likely, that he/she has a life outside of the interweb.

> It's quite possible, probably likely, that he/she has a life outside of the interweb.
Mandy is the one posting questions late on Saturday night. The way it is, it feels like she is checking off the "Consult Surveyor" box. Which is about the way GIS data usually seems to come my way. "Consult Surveyor" after the project has gone sideways because GIS data has been used inappropriately.

Norman.....Really?

That's the best advice you have?
You seem to have this message board confused with a chat room.

Thanks, very helpful

Thanks for such specific examples. I’m hearing loud and clear that on-the-ground experience and learning practical applications is critical. Just taking classes would get me tagged, as Richard said, “University smart”. Don’t want that. I’m still considering different directions to go with GIS as a career, but I hear you, Carl, on being wary of the “Planning” route. I’m picking my courses for the Fall semester now, and programming, remote sensing & the basics of projections are top of my list for electives; I was glad to hear them mentioned here. I may try to take additional programming classes outside of what' offered. Can't hurt.

Some background, in response to Andy J, I studied liberal arts for my Bachelor’s and have been working in business/strategy consulting ever since. On a recent strategy project, I was first exposed to GIS when I was asked to solve a problem for a client that went like this:

A global paint company wants to expand their retail operation in the US; currently, they’re a distant third in the market and have limited funds to build new retail locations. Our firm’s task was to identify which markets (cities) in the US the client could invest in building new stores such that they’d end up with dominant market share in each (this meant determining the locations & quantities of every brand of paint sold in any paint shop in the country). Add into the mix that there needed to be sufficient demand, positive construction growth indicators and a likelihood that the painting contractors in the area would consider switching brands to call it an “attractive” market. We were also asked to pinpoint in which areas of the cities it would/wouldn’t make sense to build a new store based on the locations of painting contractors & competitor locations; that’s about as granular as it got.

We used really basic mapping software to sort through the question for them, and I had a blast doing it. Since that project was really a one-time thing, I looked into what GIS was all about and started talking with other people who work with GIS for a living. So, that got me where I am now & convinced me I needed to study this. That original project was very “big picture”, I realize, not even close to requiring the accuracy standards of surveying, but it started me down this path anyway. Now that I’ve talked to several other people working with GIS for a living, its clear there are ways to work with it that require more accuracy, which appeals to me.

Having also worked for a surveyor for many summers back in high school/college (& loving it), I was glad to learn that the two fields sometimes intersect, and that led me here. Seems like a fundamental difference between the two fields is standards of accuracy, and as LRDay said, not many resources are put behind alleviating that problem. That’s good for me to know going in.

I’m planning to have time to work/intern while studying, and will definitely reach out to more surveyors to see exactly how they use GIS. Thanks for the suggestion, Andy.

Thanks, very helpful

Sounds like a fine plan. There is plenty of room in GIS for applications that have nothing to do with land surveying,as your example shows. I've been labeled the" college punk" so I know how that goes. I had survey experience before college, and it just motivated me to work even harder. Since your undergrad is not in a geo-based program, I'd look intO the ESRI online training, I've really enjoyed the classes they offer at state and ACSM conferences. Don't let grumpy surveyors deter you, they might be projecting their prejudices on your situation. Cheers.
Andy.

Mandy, let me congratulate you on what sounds like what will be a wonderful career. Let me also thank you for asking an important question and for your recognition that there is a question to be asked. I think that is the most important thing; that you are willing to ask the question, and to recognize that although GIS is an extraordinarily powerful tool as demonstrated by the example of your project, it does have its limitations. It limitation may be that when it is used to relate information to boundaries of properties or of other physical features, that relationship may not be real. It may be real, if surveyors helped create the model and “ground truthed” the data, or it may be a total fiction. Be skeptical and ask the hard questions. You will never regret it. I wish you the best of luck; let us know where you land.

You asked the right question.

Sounds as if you have things pretty much in order.

Having any knowledge of surveying will help you out tremendously in a GIS career.

It will put you out ahead of 95% of your graduating class.

My oldest graduated with an MS in GIS in 2010 so some of my advice came from that quarter. But I gave him the same advice I have given you. I got it from the industry because at that time I was the project manager for a statewide GIS project and I asked those questions of the top GIS professionals I met and worked with at the time.

He graduated from the first group of Master's graduates from his university which did not have a 100% placement rate upon graduation, with many going to ESRI in earlier classes.

Those days are over, and it took him several months to get a position, but it was one which was ideal for him. That is simply a function of the current economy which hopefully will be much improved by the time you graduate. I don't think that you can choose a better career path for yourself, so move forward with your plans.

Thanks, very helpful

:good: :good:

Most layers in a GIS are less accurate than the
surveying or land coordinate base. More and more, I
am seeing the GIS or planning people want more accuracy
and precision that a land surveyor might provide. They
are tired of throwing around the GIS terms like rubber
sheeting, association algorithms, etc. They want to
avoid the future expense of rectifying positions in their
maps versus surveying very accurate at the start.

Thanks, very helpful

I'm very pleased to be proven wrong.

Although it has been a very long time ago,

I expect that things have not changed too much since when I was in college.

At that time, I took a graduate level GIS course and found it to be pretty interesting. I had a fair amount of cartography under my belt as a surveying student, but I had not worked with the level of data integration that happens within GIS.

I would recommend that you take at least a course or two as introductions to surveying. The reason I suggest this is that as a presentation to the class during the GIS course I took, I displayed and discussed the methods I used to collect a data set that I used for one of the early mapping assignments. The GIS students really were not at all familiar with any form of gathering data besides remote sensing or pulling up an existing file from the computer. It certainly would not hurt to be familiar with the basics of plane surveying measurements.

As long as you clearly understand the current limitations of GIS in regards to property boundary locations, you will be far ahead of many GIS students. Make sure you are very well aware of the idea that just because it is on the screen or in the data set does not mean that all data is of the same accuracy. That is one of the tricky concepts of GIS. You can have a boat load of data displayed, but you have to know how well each piece of data was collected.

From the get go, you should be aware that many surveyors will always have an issue with GIS because they have either
1. had a bad experience with a GIS technician who did not understand the above points or

2. they, themselves, do not understand the above points.

Good luck with the program of study. It is a very interesting field and can lead to some great opportunities.

Thanks, very helpful

Nothing wrong with being labeled "university smart". It is an excellent starting point for professional growth.

From this follow-up post, it sounds like you have a great handle on what you are doing. Your paint example is a neat application of a GIS and certainly shows the breadth of possibilities that GIS can be applied to.