These are for boundary surveys for the state to purchase either conservation easements or property in fee to be added to existing parks.?ÿ We have a state qualifications based contracting law, but it only applies to engineering and architectural services contracted through the DOT or the General Services Agency, they can make an end run around it by contracting from another department (natural resources)?ÿ ?ÿ
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Thank you very much for submitting a proposal for (blank). The low bid was submitted by (blankity-blank)?ÿ at $2,925.00.
The remaining Bid Results are as follows:
Vendor?ÿ Bid Amount
A?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ $3,850.00
B?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ$5,800.00
C?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ$6,200.00
D?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ$6,200.00
E?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ $6,540.00
Thank you very much for submitting a proposal for (blank). The low bid was submitted by (blankity-blank) at $6,000.00.
The remaining Bid Results are as follows:
Vendor?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿBid Amount
A?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ$8,490.00
B?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ$12,350.00
C?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ$12,900.00
D?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ$12,910.00
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I guess the plus side is, come April when I pay my taxes, I know the state is getting surveys at +/- 50 cents on the dollar
And a final product worth less than that.
LoL. . .?ÿ Been there. At least the bids are close hahha. I saw bids average $22,000 +/- and the winning bit was $7K. I am sure it was his only job for the winter.?ÿ
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We keep waiting for the low-ballers to die off or retire, but it looks more and more like it ain't happening.?ÿ They must breed faster than we thought.
?ÿThey must breed faster than we thought.
I know a few that I'm willing to neuter.?ÿ?ÿ
What state are you in??ÿ What you described would not fly in this area at at all.?ÿ I realize everyone has to make a living but when they reduce surveyors to contractors it dilutes the profession to a trade where services are procured based on how much $ you want lose.?ÿ
I get calls occasionally for 'bids' and tell the caller(private land owner or contractor) we do not bid, but I can provide a contract for professional services which will outline our scope and anticipated cost.?ÿ Typically that is the end of the call.?ÿ There was a time in my career when i produced bids but over time i realized the issues involved in this practice and haven't produced a bid in about a decade.
?ÿI get calls occasionally for 'bids' and tell the caller(private land owner or contractor) we do not bid, but I can provide a contract for professional services which will outline our scope and anticipated cost.?ÿ Typically that is the end of the call.?ÿ There was a time in my career when i produced bids but over time i realized the issues involved in this practice and haven't produced a bid in about a decade.
Do you require potential client to sign an affidavit stating that they will procure no other proposals for the project other than yours??ÿ
Because if you prove a scope and fee proposal, and they ask another firm to do the same, and then the client makes his decision based on fee (because both proposal outline a similar scope) than you have provided a "bid" no matter what you call it.?ÿ?ÿ
I disagree 100%.?ÿ A bid implies we are trying to get the job based on cost.?ÿ I always tell the caller if your looking for the lowest cost I will gladly pass them onto others that are significantly cheaper, some do, some don't.?ÿ?ÿ
I disagree 100%. You read the word "bid" and infer that everyone is trying to get the job based solely on cost.?ÿ In the examples I posted 2/3 of the firms look like they are submitting a reasonable fee estimates,?ÿ and a couple are cutting their price to get the job.?ÿ ?ÿ
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In a free market society, you can't really complain about low bidders.?ÿ There will always be one.?ÿ The real question is whether or not the low bidder is performing the work in accordance with the standard of practice.?ÿ Wait for the final product, review it, then complain to the officials if the project is either sub-standard or above budget.?ÿ Hold the low bidder to the standard.?ÿ Perhaps they'll spend so much of their time correcting their sub-standard work, they won't have time to make the next bid (or, perhaps will learn how to bid appropriately the next time).
We can certainly complain about them.?ÿ Many times shoddy work isn't going to be obvious or apparent immediately.?ÿ It may not be exposed till 40 years from now, when the abutter goes to do something on his land, and another surveyor discovers it.
The problem is that no matter who wins the bid, the general public often doesn't see any difference between the product that's produced.?ÿ
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I find in my area that there are a minority of surveyors who are competent but unfortunately content with a low income and low standard of living. The rest of us sometimes complain about their unprofessional image--ratty old car, chainsmoking, covered in dog hair, [insert low social class signal of your choice], but some of these guys do good work and don't charge much. It stinks for the rest of us who would rather be upper middle class professionals, but in some cases I have to admit that what really bothers me is that they really are the competition for certain boundary work, and their decisions have a negative effect on both my bank account and the standing of my profession.
I disagree 100%. You read the word "bid" and infer that everyone is trying to get the job based solely on cost.?ÿ?ÿ
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If you are providing a bid and thinking you will be selected because you are more knowledgeable than the others you're just kidding yourself.?ÿ The winning bid will be almost always be based on cost if cost is a qualifying factor.?ÿ Your two examples were glaring examples of this. Until us surveyor's stop providing bids we'll continue to be thought of as plumbers and carpenters.
I disagree 100%. You read the word "bid" and infer that everyone is trying to get the job based solely on cost.?ÿ?ÿ
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If you are providing a bid and thinking you will be selected because you are more knowledgeable than the others you're just kidding yourself.?ÿ The winning bid will be almost always be based on cost if cost is a qualifying factor.?ÿ Your two examples were glaring examples of this. Until us surveyor's stop providing bids we'll continue to be thought of as plumbers and carpenters.
Thankfully I have dealt with government agencies that had a "real" qualifications based proposal format.?ÿ When you submitted a proposal you submitted TWO envelopes.?ÿ First was an envelope with your understanding of the project and ?ÿyour scope of services.?ÿ The second envelope contained your price to perform the work.?ÿ The top three (of the first envelopes) were selected, the second envelope for the other submittals were returned unopened.?ÿ Then the second envelope for the top three were opened for selection.?ÿ It may not be TOTALLY based on quality of work but it's the closest I have ever seen.
Andy
Until us surveyor's stop providing bids we'll continue to be thought of as plumbers and carpenters.
I can't get a plumber or carpenter to give me a bid in my neck of the woods, especially plumbers.
For relatively small jobs like this, why not take one as a test case and put in what you think is a winning price, win it, do it to to your usual standard, then see how the bottom line stacks up. At least you'll have some runs on the scoreboard.
I disagree 100%. You read the word "bid" and infer that everyone is trying to get the job based solely on cost.?ÿ?ÿ
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If you are providing a bid and thinking you will be selected because you are more knowledgeable than the others you're just kidding yourself.?ÿ The winning bid will be almost always be based on cost if cost is a qualifying factor.?ÿ Your two examples were glaring examples of this. Until us surveyor's stop providing bids we'll continue to be thought of as plumbers and carpenters.
With the exception of Brooks Act work, I really don't know how you think cost could be removed from the equation. Providing someone with an estimate/bid up front is not going away. The problem isn't that we're asked to provide an estimate or a bid up front, the problem is that boundary surveying is generally considered to have a low value in our society. That is NOT the result of bidding or estimating.
You would ask for an estimate from an architect to design your house, from a doctor to perform a boob job, from an accountant to handle your finances...and from a contractor and/or plumber to work on your house. In all of those cases you would perhaps get several estimates and weigh cost against reputation. Neither cut-rate boob jobs or cut-rate plumbing are much of a bargain. Our problem as surveyors is that the value of our services is often perceived as lower than both many professions AND skilled trades. You very well may strictly price shop for snow removal, routine landscaping, tree removal, oil changes, and house painting. As noted above, the public simply cannot distinguish among different levels of survey "quality" and only rarely would they care to do so anyway.
In the rare cases where they do care to discriminate based on quality, they seem happy to pay through the nose (like in?ÿsome of the boundary cases that JBStahl shares). But my understanding is that this is often well after the lawyers have entered the room, so surveying starts to look cheap!
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With the exception of Brooks Act work, I really don't know how you think cost could be removed from the equation. Providing someone with an estimate/bid up front is not going away. The problem isn't that we're asked to provide an estimate or a bid up front, the problem is that boundary surveying is generally considered to have a low value in our society. That is NOT the result of bidding or estimating.
You would ask for an estimate from an architect to design your house, from a doctor to perform a boob job, from an accountant to handle your finances...and from a contractor and/or plumber to work on your house. In all of those cases you would perhaps get several estimates and weigh cost against reputation. Neither cut-rate boob jobs or cut-rate plumbing are much of a bargain. Our problem as surveyors is that the value of our services is often perceived as lower than both many professions AND skilled trades. You very well may strictly price shop for snow removal, routine landscaping, tree removal, oil changes, and house painting. As noted above, the public simply cannot distinguish among different levels of survey "quality" and only rarely would they care to do so anyway.
In the rare cases where they do care to discriminate based on quality, they seem happy to pay through the nose (like in?ÿsome of the boundary cases that JBStahl shares). But my understanding is that this is often well after the lawyers have entered the room, so surveying starts to look cheap!
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Fortunately you are wrong.?ÿ Obviously other areas of the USA run by a different set of rules than around this area. For the majority of our projects over the last 15 years we are selected based on a quality based system.?ÿ Cost is not even discussed, nor can it be, until the consultant is chosen.?ÿ There are RFPs coming out by the dozens on a daily basis that follow this exact criteria.
You made me think of a possible surveying add.?ÿ Put a set of crooked ones on your add and say?ÿ "She picked the lowest price - do you want this to happen to your survey??ÿ Do it right the first time!