Sending out dwg files

5 months ago.... sounds like the survey was possibly for the sale? If so, they should have asked for that as a deliverable. But since it's pretty current, I would probably share it with the architect. The note is what it is. Not sure what they think is up for them to "review". Don't like it, delete my cad file.

Unless you're using special software (and maybe not even then) there's no way to prevent a DWG from being altered, so a DWG can't be considered authoritative. However, if the DWG can be shown to present the same information as a signed and sealed paper drawing, I don't think a note denying professional liability will get you very far in court.

For third party clients I place a price on my dwg file and give them a quote.

Everything that you send out has the weight of a full fledged survey unless you have placed or attached the official "preliminary drawing only, etc" statement..........

RPLS#, post: 432192, member: 12280 wrote: .Whats a nice way to tell him and his client I dont accept liability from people who have not paid a fee, and or if I'm not aware of what there project is or who the client is? I would prefer not to piss them off, but convert them into a new client.

being a little gruff here, but i think that ship already sailed when you sent the drawing. Should have been discussed beforehand.

Think we have been down this road before. Some years ago (2009) an article I wrote (http://nexgenaccess.com/~dmorlan/Electronic%20Information%20Transfer.pdf&apos ;">Electronic Information Transfer Requirements) was published by http://ohiosurveyor.org/&apos ;">Professional Land Surveyors of Ohio, Inc. in Ohio Surveying News. In Ohio your DWG file would be required to comply with the following "Plans, specifications, plats, reports, and all other engineering or surveying work products issued by a registrant shall be stamped with the seal and be signed and dated by the registrant or
bear a computer-generated seal and electronic signature and date . . ."

The recent versions AutoCAD will comply with this requirement. See "https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/autocad/getting-started/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2016/ENU/AutoCAD-Core/files/GUID-3D3F2AB3-E3B0-40D7-9A47-4BC77AAE451E-htm.html&apos ;">About Digital Signatures For Drawings" the process described protects the file from unauthorized alteration. I would suggest checking the state laws and rules adopted by your license board as well as governing digital commerce before sending any electronic documents, including business related email, to clients or their representatives.

I hate sending CAD. I zip them with a password and send the zip with an EULA that admonishes me from liability and does not allow them to transfer the dwg to others without written permission.

I had an architect call last year for a 10 year old drawing. My client had conveyed the property 5 years ago and he died 2 years ago (I was at his funeral). The architect wanted that CAD... so I asked who she was working for.
The property owner.
OK. I'd be happy to prepare an estimate to update the CAD and provide it.
No. I just want whatever you have.
Well, I would like to review it and charge for it.
I don't see why.
Really? Who do you think owns the drawing?
Well the property owner of course. Please just give me the drawing file.
Get it from the property owner.

Dallas Morlan, post: 432233, member: 6020 wrote: the process described protects the file from unauthorized alteration

I'm under the impression that the process simply attaches a digital signature and indicates whether or not it's valid, but does nothing to prevent alteration of the drawing. While signature validation is useful, refuting a claim of negligence based on a DWG is still going to rely on a hardcopy comparison.

In general I'm cautious about sending out dwg files.

Much rather email them a pdf

I am always nervous sending out .dwg files, because all my layers go out with them. I will send .dxf files, but much prefer to send .pdf files. I have even copied just line work to new drawing files for sending out to clients who asked for drawings in CAD, just so my calculations don't go with the drawing.

Jim Frame, post: 432264, member: 10 wrote: ....refuting a claim of negligence based on a DWG is still going to rely on a hardcopy comparison.....

If you send the dwg attached to an email then the email attachment will always be an unaltered copy of what you sent. Archive that email.

Monte, post: 432292, member: 11913 wrote: I have even copied just line work to new drawing files for sending out to clients

Very good idea. WBLOCK out only the elements you want to share. I generally send out a pdf of the sheet file (with signature) and a WBLOCKed version of the model space elements.

A local deafter with no license got hold of one of my drawings. He proceeded to change the boundary, draft it up as a preliminary plat and file it with a local city with my seal on it. Another time I sent out a PDF with cosign signature, only to have it returned with the signature stripped and the seal intact (a violation here).
I can tell you from this and other experiences we arent nearly as equipped to go full electronic as many think. It is the way to go for a lot of things but the law and tech are still lacking.

Mark Mayer, post: 432295, member: 424 wrote: If you send the dwg attached to an email then the email attachment will always be an unaltered copy of what you sent. Archive that email.

An email attachment is nothing more than a link to a file. That file can be altered without changing the link, and its properties (e.g. date modified) changed if desired. Thus the link isn't proof of file status at the time of emailing. Besides, how do you convince a judge that a digital file is unaltered? Holding up the hard drive and pointing at it isn't going to work; I think you pretty much need a paper copy to prove alteration.

Edit: I may be wrong about the attachment after-the-fact. If it's possible to recover the MIME-encoded file, then maybe you can demonstrate what was emailed.

Jim Frame, post: 432310, member: 10 wrote: I think you pretty much need a paper copy to prove alteration.

Even a paper copy is not unassailable proof. A paper copy can be produced from an altered file at any time. System clocks can be jimmied.

I've sent files out both ways - pdf and dwg. I much prefer the pdf, but the clients usually want the dwg file to add into their plan set as a background image. The Digital signature thing is a bit of a mystery to me. How can I be sure that no-one has tinkered around with my data? I'm sure it can and has been to suit the "needs" of the engineer/architect. This isn't acceptable or even legal, but it has been done to some degree I know. I've tried the Adobe esignature a few times but it doesn't leave me with a feeling that it is really secure.

Mark Mayer, post: 432313, member: 424 wrote: Even a paper copy is not unassailable proof.

The paper copy I'm referring to is a signed and sealed original deliverable. But even I only send those out about half the time; for my design professional clients I use an unsigned DWG and a signed PDF. So far so good.

But on the other hand, I'm mindful of the case of a surveyor who did a building layout and signed an indemnification clause in his contract with the general. These clauses are common, I've signed them dozens of times. But in this case problems with the anchor bolts cost a lot of money to remediate. The general sued the concrete sub who was responsible for the problem, they settled for less than the original claim, and now the general is going after the surveyor because he agreed to indemnify them from loss. Gulp.

A person would have to hire a forensic computer specialist to examine the original computer and drive containing the file to certify as to the authenticity of the original file.
That's not gonna be cheap or fool proof.
Personally, I've seen people go to prison from the false testimony of computer specialists and suspicious data that was placed on computers while in the specialist shop as proven by the creation dates.
I do not trust them and the kangaroo courts that they testify in.
Just say NO.............

Jim Frame, post: 432264, member: 10 wrote: I'm under the impression that the process simply attaches a digital signature and indicates whether or not it's valid, but does nothing to prevent alteration of the drawing. While signature validation is useful, refuting a claim of negligence based on a DWG is still going to rely on a hardcopy comparison.

The following is quoted (emphasis added) from the Autodesk page linked above.

[INDENT]Drawing files with digital signatures provide the following benefits:

• Recipients of drawings are provided with reliable information about who created a drawing.
• Owners of drawings are provided with reliable verification that a drawing has not been modified since it was digitally signed.

To attach a digital signature to a file, you must either have a digital certificate issued by a certificate authority, or you can create a self-signed certificate using one of several utilities.[/INDENT]

The same is true of pdf files digitally signed using the "certify" option of Adobe Acrobat. The following is quoted from the online page https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/kb/certificate-signatures.html&apos ;">About certificate signatures in Adobe Acrobat.
[INDENT]
Why use certificate signatures?
Many business transactions, including financial, legal, and other regulated transactions, require high assurance when signing documents. When documents are distributed electronically, it is important that recipients can:

• Verify document authenticityƒ??confirming the identity of each person who signed the document
• Verify document integrityƒ??confirming that the document has not been altered in transit

Certificate-based signatures provide both of these security services. Many businesses and governments have chosen to set up a certificate-based digital signature infrastructure within their organization. They use third-party certificate authorities to provide independent identity validation.[/INDENT]

Some pdf creators have similar options while others do not. As always it is the users knowledge of the tools (software) that controls the quality of the results. The 2009 article (mentioned above) I prepared for Ohio Surveying News suggested "The Ohio agencies and licensing boards also have the option of using the e-license database to generate and distribute professional digital certificates. Pursuing this option may require working with one of the established CA firms to insure wide acceptance of the certificate." This could also provide online verification of the current license status of the document signer.

thebionicman, post: 432297, member: 8136 wrote: A local deafter with no license got hold of one of my drawings. He proceeded to change the boundary, draft it up as a preliminary plat and file it with a local city with my seal on it. Another time I sent out a PDF with cosign signature, only to have it returned with the signature stripped and the seal intact (a violation here).

For that one, I'd file a complaint with the licensing board, the local DA (for fraud), and go to whichever agency or agencies the drafter had been dealing with and get all the maps back. If agencies refuse to cooperate, file a complaint with the licensing board against both the licensee closest to the application and the highest licensee in the agency. They may get more cooperative, and may even put a policy in place of not accepting altered drawings or drawings from drafting companies with no licensees on staff.

Often, the DA won't prosecute something like this as they have bigger fish to fry and lack personnel to get to something this (relatively) small. However, here in CA, there was a case that hit the news pretty big a year or two ago of a couple of unlicensed guys who fraudulently provided services on many projects, so the DA's around here might be a little more willing to put someone on it. Either way, I'd want the complaint on file.

thebionicman, post: 432297, member: 8136 wrote: I can tell you from this and other experiences we arent nearly as equipped to go full electronic as many think. It is the way to go for a lot of things but the law and tech are still lacking.

I agree. Many agencies want electronic submissions for review. I have a level of discomfort with that as there are a lot of reviewers who might take it upon themselves to make corrections and not understand the full ramifications of doing so.

As for providing CAD data to a private party, I used to have an agreement prepared for that type of request that addressed changes, effective dates, and liabilities, and included the code section of our Professional Land Surveyors' Act that specifically addresses subsequent alterations. I would make a PDF of the drawing as it existed, keep a printed copy and send one to the requester for their reference. In the CAD file, I would strip out any info that did not relate to the content of the printed copy (i.e. construction lines, any other prelim data that didn't make the final, etc.).

Clients could get electronic copies sometimes for free, sometimes for a fairly nominal fee, depending on full circumstances, if they returned a signed Electronic Files Agreement. No agreement, no files. 3rd parties, unless there was some provision in the original agreement to provide info to a purchaser, would get charged more than a nominal fee but less than what it cost to perform the survey and produce the data in the first place. But again, only if they returned a signed Electronic Files Agreement.

I send a stamped pdf of the plan, along with a wblock of what they need along with a standard license agreement as to the nature of their use. They don't need my points, control, etc. We do a lot of work with architects and municipalities, often a dwg is a required deliverable. You can't protect against everything.

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