I got a call from a guy this morning wanting to hire me to "ascertain" the point of beginning of his property. He said that he was in the process of taking action to gain "absolute ownership" of his land by claiming the "forever" benefit of the original land patent. He told me that this absolute ownership would preclude a bank foreclosure, eminent domain and even property taxes. He claims that it has never been defeated in court. The guy he is talking to charges $580 for this service. You can check out his website at www.landpatent.us.
Has anyone heard of this?
The Bow Tie Surveyor
I have heard of it. I don't know if it actually is a legal position.
The link doesn't work.
B-)
> I have heard of it. I don't know if it actually is a legal position.
>
> The link doesn't work.
>
> B-)
You just have to take the period off the end. http://www.landpatent.us//a >
He is throwing around a bunch of terms which mean completely different things in relation to land title than they do in common vernacular. Tenancy is one.
try this link... there was a trailing dot in the original
www.landpatent.us
I seem to remember seeing some discussion here on this before... I don't believe it does more than generate $$$ for some spamer
The Land Patent in Question Says...
"NOW KNOW YE, That the United States of America, in consideration of the Premises, and in conformity with the several acts of Congress, in such case made and provided, HAVE GIVEN AND GRANTED, and by these presents DO GIVE AND GRANT, unto the said [Patentee's name] and to his heirs, the said tract above described: TO HAVE AND TO HOLD the same, together with all the rights, privileges, immunities, and appurtenances of whatsoever nature, thereunto belonging, unto the said [Patentee's name] and to his heirs and assigns forever.
In Testimony Whereof, Franklin Pierce, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA"
The patent is signed by the President by his secretary on May 1st, 1855.
Is there something in this language that would grant more rights that you would get today with a Warranty Deed? For those working out west where there is public land left, do they still issue patents like this?
The Bow Tie Surveyor
Maybe you're remembering [msg=190799]this one[/msg] about allodial title.
The Land Patent in Question Says...
According to these strange people we have not elected governors, senators, congressional representatives, the VP and the Prez since 1944. Something to do with only landowning freemen being allowed to cast votes.
They are blowing smoke up the nether portals of those ignorant enough to listen. Hell has a special hotspot for shysters.
Here is one thing BLM has on it.
http://www.americanssovereignbulletin.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/BLM-Response.pdf
Obtaining "Absolute Ownership" of your Property... allodial!
yep, that's it, thanks
That kind of stuff is started by nutjobs. Kinda like those chain letters that re-appear every few years.
John Harmon
> He claims that it has never been defeated in court.
I guess if a claim is dismissed as frivolous, technically it isn't "defeated."
Only one person has "Absolute Ownership" and his name is Ted 😀
This nonsense does make one philosophize about what it DOES mean to own real property. At root, you own what you and your society can defend.
I think, in practical terms in the US, fee ownership means that the government (i.e., courts, police, and military) will defend your rights to the property. There are a few exceptions like eminent domain where you are supposed to get just compensation, and a few obligations like paying taxes and debts. Is there a better practical definition?
"Absolute ownership" seems to say they want to avoid those few exceptions and obligations. They would take on the responsibility of defending that property all by themselves since they don't want to play by the society's rules. Other than putting everyone on notice that they have tried to secede from the US, their "legal" paperwork doesn't accomplish anything since it is not part of society's system.
One motivation seems to be avoiding taxes. Rationally, that indicates they shouldn't expect any help from the government entities that run on taxes, like police, highway departments, schools, etc.
Do the instructions on "Absolute Ownership" include instructions on shooting a howitzer and AK47?
The guy told him that some Clerk of Courts will refuse to record the documents that need to be filed to gain this ownership because they know that it will mean a loss in tax revenue. He also told him if that happens that they have a Republic (I guess like another country?) that they could record the documents. Now I'm kind of wondering if this Republic that they are talking about is one they set up themselves.
I just told him that the description in his warranty deed was a metes and bounds description and the point of beginning was "ascertainable" from the description. He asked if he owed me anything for my research. I told him not to worry about it.
First time for everything I guess.
The Bow Tie Surveyor
Was his offer to pay in the form of the currency from the Recording Republic?
Homestead land is a thing of the past, so I would imagine land patents went away too. I would guess that all the old ranchos in CA have been resold and cut up by now. Thanks to inheritance taxes all long time ranches and farms have had to be partially or totally sold off to pay the govts hard earned share.
I have owned numerous houses in So Cal and would sure like to know who holds the mineral rights, I sure don't.
Thinking the govt will protect your right to "your property" is only a possibility if you have enough money to fight whoever is trying to take your land. If the govt wants your land, See the thread on the RR in CA not being wanted, they will take it and you get whatever they feel like paying. Even if you do prevail in court for a higher price, which takes years, any amount of increase is based on the values at the time of the original offer. The judge works for the govt too.
The courts, esp in going after alleged tax evaders, throws out many motions brought by the defense by calling the motion "frivolous", its a favorite term when a motion might make the govt lose their case. Again the judge works for the govt.
Last year a land owner in Indiana was thrown off his ~80 acres because he was not on the gird, that is, using public utilities. He had his own water, power and lots of firewood and on 80 acres I would think you could urinate anywhere without contaminating the neighbors ground water but apparently the city thought he needed to pay for his utilities.
I have owned numerous houses in So Cal and would sure like to know who holds the mineral rights, I sure don't.
You may be suprised. I was involved in a rather complicated project near a number of subdivisions. It ended up that the mineral rights under the subdivision lots were owned by the lot owners. If the minerals are not reserved by the grantor the grantee automatically acquires the grantor's share. Sometimes it's not too difficult to track the mineral ownership. Just follow the chain and see if they were reserved. This gets important because of newer drilling and spacing rules, particularly with respect to horizontal drilling plans.
No such thing. Very few absolutes in life outside of the Natural Laws.
Brings to mind "Rozny vs. Marnul" where the surveyor certified to "Absolute Accuracy".
The courts dragged him through the fire for that claim and I hope someone does the same for these characters......
The Pope owns it. On paper, anyhow. So good luck proving that allodial sovereignty, because there are about fifty layers of adhesion contracts between you and it.
In 1213 King John gave everything (England and Ireland, along with ALL FUTURE DISCOVERIES OR CONQUESTS made by him or his heirs and successors) to the Pope, to get un-ex-communicated.
That's the first or second layer, and since then the attorneys and their various municipal corporations have piled up all the other layers.
I've been researching this for years. Not because I want to start my own country or anything. I just get really unamused with the "heads I win tails you lose" attitude that the bankers and mortgage industry exhibit. That attitude needs smacking down.
It's hard to discuss most of this stuff rationally because it is all steeped in politics and religion.
As the mortgage / housing issues continue, more and more people are going to be asking questions like this. They are essentially asking how to fight paper with paper. Perhaps there is a market for surveyors helping people having foreclosure problems with boundary law issues. It would involve our core expertise (boundary law) and could not be outsourced to contractors, GIS techs, or engineers.
