JKinAK, post: 414044, member: 7219 wrote: I simply try to expedite the natural course of things by referring all of the obviously problematic clients/jobs to the low ballers.
Perfect. Love it.
I'm reminded of Will Geer's character "Bear Claw" in the movie Jeremiah Johnson. After asking Johnson if he thought he could skin a grizzly he lured a live one into the cabin where Johnson was sleeping. After jumping out the window and leaving the bear and Jeremiah to work things out, he hollered, "There's you a grizz Pilgrim! Skin him and I'll bring you another!"
paden cash, post: 414051, member: 20 wrote: Perfect. Love it.
I'm reminded of Will Geer's character "Bear Claw" in the movie Jeremiah Johnson. After asking Johnson if he thought he could skin a grizzly he lured a live one into the cabin where Johnson was sleeping. After jumping out the window and leaving the bear and Jeremiah to work things out, he hollered, "There's you a grizz Pilgrim! Skin him and I'll bring you another!"
I think the term "tenderfoot" was used a couple of times in that exchange too. Always loved that movie.
flyin solo, post: 414028, member: 8089 wrote: this part is interesting. i have a friend who has been in business longer than i've been of voting age. he employs a handful of guys that i've also come to know over the years. they're about a motley crew, but i'd hire any of them in a heartbeat. but over the past few years i had the opportunity to to bid a couple jobs that my buddy ultimately got. and we're good enough that we can casually discuss fees with each other and i've got no problem with him getting work that i'd like to have, or vice versa. here's the deal: he bills at like a THIRD of what i was billing (admittedly high, among the highest in the area, but not rolls royce expensive). now, his overhead is a little bit lower- buys used trucks that are beat all to hell, rents an office in a grimy corner of town, runs 10 year old software. but it's not 65% lower... and i don't ask what he pays his guys (also my friends, remember)- but they've all been with him for over 20 years, and rarely complain in any sincere way about working for him, or ever talk about going out and finding a different gig.
i don't know how he keeps the lights on, let alone pay for a couple network subscriptions, upkeep on the gear, salaries... and he turns out competent work.
after the last job we both bid on (that he got), i asked him what his fee was. i'd written a proposal for 18K. he charged 3K. if there were any other proposals- whether it be 3 others or 10 others- i guarantee you they were all closer to my number than to his. i told him it was the 21st century, that he should start by doubling his fees and then go up from there. i don't know if he listened or not, but i did let him know that there were a bunch of us out there doing him the favor of inflating our fees to astronomical levels specifically to feed him more work...
This is what I am speaking to. I'm not mentioning people who geniunely have low overhead, and beat us out by a few thousand or hundred dollars. It's the ALTA we price at $15,000 and they get it for $1800.
There is a comradery among other professions on fees we just don't seem to have. If Bubba does get the job, so be it. Let him hang, etc. ......Except, it brings all of us down as far as the value of our work. If a doctor was so cut throat they'd start to be monitored by the FBI for black market organ removal.
Peter Ehlert, post: 413986, member: 60 wrote: one of the local pundits (Dennis) just posted this:
"By the way....never, as a professional, work for free. Never. It will become as regrettable as a facial tattoo, and as hard to get rid of in the future."
(Dennis was responding to a young fella making an announcement that just got his law degree. I asked Dennis why... I am awaiting his response )
so I am asking you, as professionals, Why or Why Not?
I probably do 10+ jobs a year for free. Generally it's people I know and I'm friends with. Sometimes it's a small community improvement project, and sometimes it's for old widow-women who can't pay.
With regard to working for friends, I've found you can never charge them a fee that's small enough. So, I just do them for free if I want to keep them as a friend. In fact, I just finished one this morning for a friend of mine. Fairly simple survey and he wanted to pay, but he also backs me up inside burning houses and we've drank a beer or two together and he's got a small daughter, kid on the way, and about to build a house.
For everyone that I do one for "free" for though, I tell them what it should have cost, and ask that if ANYONE asks what I charged, to please say that amount. Helps long term with people not wanting something for free and allows me to help those that I want to help.
I do surveys for churches for free, and just agreed to update one in Sahuarita not ten minutes ago. I've been blessed in every aspect of my life, so helping out a church seems the right thing to do. And they do appreciate it, from the wealthy to the poor.
Kris Morgan, post: 414088, member: 29 wrote:
With regard to working for friends, I've found you can never charge them a fee that's small enough. So, I just do them for free if I want to keep them as a friend. In fact, I just finished one this morning for a friend of mine. Fairly simple survey and he wanted to pay, but he also backs me up inside burning houses and we've drank a beer or two together and he's got a small daughter, kid on the way, and about to build a house.
So Kris.....would you consider us friends?
Kris Morgan, post: 414088, member: 29 wrote: I probably do 10+ jobs a year for free. Generally it's people I know and I'm friends with. Sometimes it's a small community improvement project, and sometimes it's for old widow-women who can't pay.
With regard to working for friends, I've found you can never charge them a fee that's small enough. So, I just do them for free if I want to keep them as a friend. In fact, I just finished one this morning for a friend of mine. Fairly simple survey and he wanted to pay, but he also backs me up inside burning houses and we've drank a beer or two together and he's got a small daughter, kid on the way, and about to build a house.
For everyone that I do one for "free" for though, I tell them what it should have cost, and ask that if ANYONE asks what I charged, to please say that amount. Helps long term with people not wanting something for free and allows me to help those that I want to help.
I've agreed to do many simple jobs for a "six pack" for friends or family. 8 hours of cutting line later i'm thinking in my head "how bout $400?".
James Fleming, post: 413999, member: 136 wrote: Absolutes are odious.
All generalizations are false.
old2969, post: 414101, member: 12214 wrote: I've agreed to do many simple jobs for a "six pack" for friends or family.
Back when I was in college I worked in the kitchen of a steak and pizza restaurant. Any dirty crummy job we didn't want to do we could get the alcoholic "boyfriend" of the crazy-as-a-march-hare dishwasher to do for a beer. Since then, if you ask me to do something "for a box of beer" you can GUARANTEE that I will never do that thing for you at anything less than full premium price, although I might have done it, for free, as a favor.
I hope that anyone who must insist upon providing surveying services for free will at least send the recipient an invoice representing what the cost of the work would have been had the provider multiplied the hours at his or her customary rates.
The bottom line can look like this:
Total for above services ............................................. $2400.00
Less family and friends discount ..............................
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL DUE this invoice ................................................... $0.00
I know we have a share of folks who expect services for free, but we pretty much limit that to the boy scouts campground, and tie it to merit badge work.
Here's an example of "Free Surveys Gone Wrong" that I experienced a number of years ago:
Kid that worked for me had a sister. Sister and hubby were buying a new house nearby. Employee asks if he can take pin-finder and plat (not mine) and find the corners for his sister on Saturday. Sure.
He tells me on Monday he found some pins but something is screwy and can't figure out the situation. I promised to look at it when I get time. Later that week I visit the area and find out three houses in the middle of the block were laid out from a PC pin and not the actual property pin (7' +/- difference). This error also makes a 4th. lot (vacant) probably unusable. I contact sis and co. to explain the situation.
Sis and co. contact seller; seller contacts developer; developer contacts his surveyor; his surveyor contacts me and we corroborate there's a bust. Developer wants several lot splits to correct the error but two of the houses have been sold and occupied. Developer doesn't want to use his original surveyor because he's going to sue him for original screw up. Owners of the two houses lawyer up, title companies act like there is a communicable disease in the area.
I provide lot splits (developer pays for it) but they take 60 days to get through City approval and other owner's counsel. Sis can't buy house and winds up with a six month lease at apartments. Almost exactly one year later we're all in depositions and the room is packed.
It eventually got settled. Sis buys house somewhere else. Builder/ Developer paid out the nose to get everything squared away. He finally won his suit against the original surveyor but never recoups all his losses.
A pin finder in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing....
I recently became involved in Engineers without Borders, the local professional chapter is building a water supply system for a village in Ecuador. I feel like it is a worthwhile endeavor for me to volunteer to help. A local engineering firm (Michael Baker) recently donated a Leica TS15 total station and a CS15 data collector. I plan on going to Ecuador to help out with surveying in April.
Worse than doing a job for someone for free is when one of your workers has a friend, in-law, etc, who needs a survey, and he asks you if he does all the work can you check/review it for them? Because it's never an interior lot in a recent subdivision, but some parcel that's a remainder with many out-lots and exceptions, but the description is the same from the original from the 1800's. Or it abuts an abandoned railroad, or a highway that's been relocated, or some other complicated mess.
John Hamilton, post: 414197, member: 640 wrote: I recently became involved in Engineers without Borders, the local professional chapter is building a water supply system for a village in Ecuador. I feel like it is a worthwhile endeavor for me to volunteer to help. A local engineering firm (Michael Baker) recently donated a Leica TS15 total station and a CS15 data collector. I plan on going to Ecuador to help out with surveying in April.
this is what i'm talking about. i really need to lose some distractions around here and wedge some time to get out to do this.
In reference to the true "cost" of our profession.
Ten years+ ago, I had a "family member' ask my opinion on the cost to do a survey. It was approximately a 2 acre lot along a DOT right-of-way and there ended up not being much surveyed around it within the previous 20 years. Anyway, long story longer, I did some research to come up with a price and before I could submit the proposal, she asked if it would cost about $75. I told her, at the time, "we don't start the truck for less than $150/hr". She wasn't quite as interested after that.
T
paden cash, post: 414189, member: 20 wrote: I provide lot splits (developer pays for it)
The Free stuff hadn't really gotten you in trouble. You had done your duty by notifying people to look at a problem, and could have washed your hands of it at that point, until you took the job to do the splits.
paden cash, post: 414189, member: 20 wrote: Later that week I visit the area and find out three houses in the middle of the block were laid out from a PC pin and not the actual property pin (7' +/- difference).
What's a "PC pin"? (Politically Correct pin?)
Tom Adams, post: 414213, member: 7285 wrote: What's a "PC pin"? (Politically Correct pin?)
Me thinks....PC = Point of Curvature in this case
Squirltech, post: 414214, member: 11959 wrote: Me thinks....PC = Point of Curvature in this case
Thanks....that's got to be it. Sometimes I just am not thinking. I'm sure a "Politically Correct pin" would be much farther out.....;-)
