one of the local pundits (Dennis) just posted this:
"By the way....never, as a professional, work for free. Never. It will become as regrettable as a facial tattoo, and as hard to get rid of in the future."
(Dennis was responding to a young fella making an announcement that just got his law degree. I asked Dennis why... I am awaiting his response )
so I am asking you, as professionals, Why or Why Not?
A common rule of thumb: The lowest invoice will be the one to cost you the most in the long run.
Thirty plus years of experience has proven that to be fairly accurate. Not one hundred percent correct, but fairly accurate.
I have to admit a little bit of jealousy sometimes for professions that seem to be able to offer their services pro bono in ways that make a huge impact in people's lives. Doctors come immediately to mind. I have friends in the medical profession who travel the world providing their services for free to people who could never afford them.
It's not too often that I get an opportunity like that as a surveyor. Without getting into "religion" I desire to be able to offer my God-given abilities to others at times. While not quite as life changing for the recipient as a life-changing surgery, it is possible to make a small difference in the life of another.
What I have made practice though, is to provide an invoice of the work showing the price of the survey without discount and then to show a zero balance owed. Many people have no idea of the value of our services, so I do this so that they will know what they are getting. This maintains the understanding of the value of the profession and hopefully it also impresses upon the recipient how I value them as well.
Years ago one of my more experienced business partners told me "Never do anybody a favor." I thought that this was a pretty hardcore stance to take, so over the years on occasion I would do someone a favor. I wish I had understood! I think every single occasion turned into a problem - not matter how simple or innocuous it seemed at the time. Now that I am the more experienced guy I pass that same admonition along to my guys whenever I can. NEVER do anybody a favor! It will only come back to bite you.
Peter Ehlert, post: 413986, member: 60 wrote: one of the local pundits (Dennis) just posted this:
"By the way....never, as a professional, work for free. Never. It will become as regrettable as a facial tattoo, and as hard to get rid of in the future."
(Dennis was responding to a young fella making an announcement that just got his law degree. I asked Dennis why... I am awaiting his response )
so I am asking you, as professionals, Why or Why Not?
I believe it depends on what services are performed; never say never. The trick is assessing the amount of liability extended.
As with most of us here I maintain a level of professional insurance. Any work I perform professionally should be covered under my policy. That policy requires premiums; hence incurred expense.
The last thing I did for free was to prepare documentation for a decedent's estate that conveyed all RTI in an undivided fashion to three survivors. Did it really require a surveyor? Probably not. Did I extend liability? Probably.
Peter Ehlert, post: 413986, member: 60 wrote: By the way....never, as a professional, work for free. Never.
Absolutes are odious.
this just in: a private response "Bad professional business practice. People begin to expect pro bono help."
my personal opinion:
Pro
good will
free advertising
Con
less money at the moment
Shawn Billings, post: 413991, member: 6521 wrote: provide an invoice of the work showing the price of the survey without discount and then to show a zero balance owed
I agree 100%
[USER=6521]@Shawn Billings[/USER]
We never hear from J.D. What's he up to these days?
I have to say that many times surveyors tend to give their services away for free already or so close it might as well be free. For some odd reason, surveyors tend to be embarrassed by the cost of providing professional services. It's not like the surveyor forced the land owners to buy the property they did.
i've looked into it in the past (though admittedly in just a cursory way, not any real digging), but i would gladly lend my expertise pro-bono for some kind of surveyorswithoutborders type scenario. or archaelogical work.
somebody go ahead and set that up, i'll be at the top of the list. 😉
Only free ones I have done were for Habitat for Humanity. Kinda makes you feel good (even for an old codger) :p
We do one about every 18 months.
Ric Moore, post: 414002, member: 731 wrote: I have to say that many times surveyors tend to give their services away for free already or so close it might as well be free. For some odd reason, surveyors tend to be embarrassed by the cost of providing professional services. It's not like the surveyor forced the land owners to buy the property they did.
We are so odd compared to other professions regarding fees. Embarassed is a good word. I believe if everybody would raise their fees above what they charged in the 80's it would alleviate the majority of our problems.
Though getting Backwoods Bubba Survey Co. on board, who's gotta feed the family, may just be impossible.
old2969, post: 414013, member: 12214 wrote: We are so odd compared to other professions regarding fees. Embarassed is a good word. I believe if everybody would raise their fees above what they charged in the 80's it would alleviate the majority of our problems.
Though getting Backwoods Bubba Survey Co. on board, who's gotta feed the family, may just be impossible.
There is a commonality in our profession I will agree. For some reason surveyors at times seem to be poor businessmen. I was probably fifty years old before I decided to draw a hard line and demand fees that were commensurate to my firm's services. Wished I had started earlier. Any loss of clientele (I really didn't notice any) was minimal...if there were any, I probably didn't need to do business with them anyway.
I also work a good amount of rural areas. There are probably six to ten "Bubbas" that live and work in those areas. Bubba doesn't charge as much as I do, but Bubba also doesn't have my resources nor overhead. They are all good surveyors, some of them close friends. I don't take work from them and enjoy the reciprocal. If Bubba is your competition your enterprise may not be where you believe.
paden cash, post: 414014, member: 20 wrote: There is a commonality in our profession I will agree. For some reason surveyors at times seem to be poor businessmen. I was probably fifty years old before I decided to draw a hard line and demand fees that were commensurate to my firm's services. Wished I had started earlier. Any loss of clientele (I really didn't notice any) was minimal...if there were any, I probably didn't need to do business with them anyway.
I also work a good amount of rural areas. There are probably six to ten "Bubbas" that live and work in those areas. Bubba doesn't charge as much as I do, but Bubba also doesn't have my resources nor overhead. They are all good surveyors, some of them close friends. I don't take work from them and enjoy the reciprocal. If Bubba is your competition your enterprise may not be where you believe.
There are some outfits that legitimately carry less overhead and costs. There's nothing wrong with that as long as they are providing a good professional service to the public.
old2969, post: 414013, member: 12214 wrote: We are so odd compared to other professions regarding fees. Embarassed is a good word. I believe if everybody would raise their fees above what they charged in the 80's it would alleviate the majority of our problems.
Though getting Backwoods Bubba Survey Co. on board, who's gotta feed the family, may just be impossible.
I always pictured a surveyor in a room with a group of people and upon his turn to speak, he hangs his head and says "I'm Bubba...and I'm a surveyor. I have a problem with charging for my services." "Welcome to the group, Bubba. You are among friends."
Ric Moore, post: 414002, member: 731 wrote: I have to say that many times surveyors tend to give their services away for free already or so close it might as well be free. For some odd reason, surveyors tend to be embarrassed by the cost of providing professional services. It's not like the surveyor forced the land owners to buy the property they did.
Ric,
"...surveyors tend to be embarrassed by the cost of providing professional services."
I've never heard it put this way, but you are exactly correct! Never seen a doctor or attorney flinch - it is what it is, take it or leave it.
Backwoods Bubba Survey Co is usually getting undercut by larger firms 2hr+ away.
There are the one member 2beep RTK crew is in such rush they don't have time to actually read the adjoining deeds and no time for proper monument research and will use the if it don't stand out it don't get tied in method.
I've seen some that had made a guess at the highway r/w because they did not allow for time to visit the DOT office.
A few days ago past client came by and wanted a price quote to survey residue tract west of a FM Hwy that was less than 1ac and had half of the legal description to the property for me to begin with.
It did not include the calls for that area of the property.
Back in 2002, one day I had staked a couple boundaries with tpost and had charged him $850 which he swore was not over $400.
Called back this morning and ask if I had any news for him.............
Told him that I had not had any reason to leave the house and would only begin after he ask me in writing to survey the property.
I have done a couple of surveys in the past for Church and Cemetery groups that I would afterwards donate the funds back to them.
Ric Moore, post: 414021, member: 731 wrote: There are some outfits that legitimately carry less overhead and costs. There's nothing wrong with that as long as they are providing a good professional service to the public.
this part is interesting. i have a friend who has been in business longer than i've been of voting age. he employs a handful of guys that i've also come to know over the years. they're about a motley crew, but i'd hire any of them in a heartbeat. but over the past few years i had the opportunity to to bid a couple jobs that my buddy ultimately got. and we're good enough that we can casually discuss fees with each other and i've got no problem with him getting work that i'd like to have, or vice versa. here's the deal: he bills at like a THIRD of what i was billing (admittedly high, among the highest in the area, but not rolls royce expensive). now, his overhead is a little bit lower- buys used trucks that are beat all to hell, rents an office in a grimy corner of town, runs 10 year old software. but it's not 65% lower... and i don't ask what he pays his guys (also my friends, remember)- but they've all been with him for over 20 years, and rarely complain in any sincere way about working for him, or ever talk about going out and finding a different gig.
i don't know how he keeps the lights on, let alone pay for a couple network subscriptions, upkeep on the gear, salaries... and he turns out competent work.
after the last job we both bid on (that he got), i asked him what his fee was. i'd written a proposal for 18K. he charged 3K. if there were any other proposals- whether it be 3 others or 10 others- i guarantee you they were all closer to my number than to his. i told him it was the 21st century, that he should start by doubling his fees and then go up from there. i don't know if he listened or not, but i did let him know that there were a bunch of us out there doing him the favor of inflating our fees to astronomical levels specifically to feed him more work...
James Fleming, post: 413999, member: 136 wrote: Absolutes are odious.
Absolutely! (er....wait a minute.)
flyin solo, post: 414028, member: 8089 wrote: i don't know how he keeps the lights on, let alone pay for a couple network subscriptions, upkeep on the gear, salaries... and he turns out competent work.
I don't know how that guy does it either. Maybe he's independently wealthy - another gentleman surveyor.
In our area there's one guy who simply has the money he needs to comfortably live out his life and his kids are set up too. He enjoys surveying but doesn't enjoy billing so he surveys and often he doesn't bill (I always send my friends to him for surveys - heck, I'd hire him to survey my property) - if you tell him the cost is too high - that's fine - what would a fair price be? Then there's a couple of guys who are retired and feel the need to keep busy - they don't want to write proposals or do the research required to determine a competitive but profitable cost so they barely charge for the work. Then, of course, there's a few who have day jobs in the public sector and do small jobs evenings and weekends - most of these surveyors go away in a few years when they have to upgrade equipment or software but don't have the money - seems like it's mostly the software cost and skills that chase them away - but there's one guy who's been doing it for decades.
Some of these folks are finding other things to do since continuing education became mandatory - often, they just don't want to spend the time or money on continuing education. Score 1 for continuing education requirements.
I simply try to expedite the natural course of things by referring all of the obviously problematic clients/jobs to the low ballers.
