hmmm.... let me get this straight.... awsomesause = GeoSlam?
Exactly what language has overtaken this country anyway?!? ??ÿ
dang, that looks awesome indeed!?ÿ ?ÿ
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Many, if not most, large engineering firms see surveying as support for the engineering departments and not as a equal. In other words they see surveying as being subordinate to engineering and a loss leader. Surveying exists to serve engineering to get the bigger more profitable design work. That has been happening for a long time and has increased since the recession. There really is not the money in doing the things we like to do. A surveying department in a large multi-discipline engineering firm cannot possibly charge the money required to break even doing boundaries and topos and asbuilts. But they can if they offer up services related to surveying like S.U.E. work. And if you are DBE you're probably doing S.U.E. work and there is not a licensure requirement for that kind of work. I despise D.O.T. & S.U.E. work.
I've never worked for BMF before, so I don't have a lot to add. I would think that your professional label doesn't mean a lot once you are in the door, and that your performance does. If you are?ÿthe go-to guy for all things scanning or some other newfound technical priority for the company, I would not be concerned. I've had quite a few friends and relatives who were in important places in management for large firms that were managing work that wasn't on their resume when they started. They adapted to the changing business climate and thrived. Sort of like having a degree - it gets you in the door, but doesn't hold much security for staying there. The real problem is if you really don't like doing that sort of work even if you are the go-to guy for it. Then there are questions of quality of life vs. financial stability that only you can answer.
It seems like in any large corporation, even when things are going well, new management likes to make changes to justify their existence. If this pursuit ends up being profitable then it will likely continue for a while, if not, I'd expect a hard turn back to more traditional and stable (if less profitable) priorities. So, as others have said, waiting it out may work well.
In other words they see surveying as being subordinate to engineering and a loss leader
I can't speak for every market, but if you try and run a survey department (or a team within a department) around here and don't turn a profit you're going to be looking for another job real soon.?ÿ
you're probably doing S.U.E. work and there is not a licensure requirement for that kind of work. I despise D.O.T. & S.U.E. work.
Every municipal, state, or federal agency I was contracted to do SUE work for contractually required the work to be performed under the responsible charge of a PE or LS and all the final deliverable were sealed and certified by the same.?ÿ?ÿ
James, That is the way a lot of engineering firms around the Atlanta area operate. The survey department exists solely to support the engineering design work and they will cut the proposed surveying costs to "win" a job and then raise hell with the survey department head when they loose money. The old "we'll make it up" crap that never works. The engineering departments come out smelling like roses but the survey departments not so much.
I will make some calls but I do not believe the S.U.E. work is required to be stamped, its not a land survey and I seem to recall they were not stamped.
Edit: Called a friend and they do stamp GDOT work.
reckon it just depends on what you want.?ÿ if you can be satisfied with your daily routine and your salary, then that works. if not...
i came to this very impasse a year and a half ago with my "partners."?ÿ with a staff of 4, the survey department generated half the billings (and almost double the profit) as the civil department with a staff of 20.?ÿ yet they balked when i asked for a bigger cut and more autonomy to make calls that?ÿwouldn't grow the business as strictly a support arm of the civil side.?ÿi tried to buy them out, ultimately decided to be bought out and walk away.?ÿ i happen to know their billings have plateaued since (which isn't to say they'll remain that way...), but all i asked for was some leash to SURVEY and they didn't want it.?ÿ so i walked.
they will cut the proposed surveying costs to?ÿ"win"?ÿa job and then raise hell with the survey department head when they loose money
There are a couple of well known firms around here that are rumored do this, but eventually they get to the point where they can't hire survey managers and end up having to sub out all their work.?ÿ I've been pretty lucky in the two bigger firms that I've worked for, but that probably been because I've been pretty picky about which firms I went to work for.?ÿ?ÿ
GeoSlam:
--Break--
As a result of a Realtor virtual tour I looked at Matterport's 3D camera which is setup repeatedly on a camera tripod.?ÿ They have a very slick presentation.?ÿ It generates a point cloud but has a 15' range.?ÿ A scan and photos only takes 1 minute so it goes pretty fast plus the processing is done automatically on-line.?ÿ This is mainly an indoor application.
James, That is the way a lot of engineering firms around the Atlanta area operate. The survey department exists solely to support the engineering design work and they will cut the proposed surveying costs to "win" a job and then raise hell with the survey department head when they loose money. The old "we'll make it up" crap that never works. The engineering departments come out smelling like roses but the survey departments not so much.
That sounds like the outdated business model i used to hear about (and seen a little of) during the 90s.?ÿ The reason I don't hear about it anymore in this area is because it doesn't work.?ÿ The successful firms know how to make $ and they know survey can be a large part of the pie.?ÿ Those that treat surveyors as sub-ordinates are destined to lose...lose profit, people and reputation.
*note: this gets long and a bit preachy. I blame insomnia and indigestion. But, it might help you, or someone else, so I'm leaving it all here. Judge me as you wish.
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This is a tough spot. I see two main issues. How the company doesn't respect surveying and how you define surveying.
Being told how to market when you aren't included in those decisions is bs. Plain and simple. They don't respect your group or the people in it. I have to agree with WA-ID where this was a common point with AEP firms in the 90s-00s. But, things changed. Once the economic turn-around hit, many surveyors were gone. Retired, sold, etc. We're a rare breed these days. The firms that changed their tune and saw how beneficial "surveying" can be to a company, are prospering. Those that stayed the course likely have shoddy work practices, a bad rep, or get by with inadequate means and people.
"Surveying" - I haven't used my stamp in 6 months, maybe longer. But the company I work for has 7 or 8, Licensed Surveyors on staff, across three states. Our survey group, more accurately called Field Services, represents about 20% of the 400 total employees. We don't limit ourselves to "just surveying" but have aligned to be two sub-groups, Surveying and Construction. Keep in mind, my immediate superior is a PS, and the Director of Field Services is also a PS. And we have some damn good "field" guys that SHOULD be PS's but don't have a degree. (Another discussion entirely) Internally, we are equals.
Construction means Inspectors, Field Reps, Field Engineers, etc. For this discussion, not important. (Traditional survey components make up about 9% of the company) But the survey group isn't just surveying. We really are Geospatial Professionals. We don't?ÿ "just do surveying" because it limits us. What we do, is have PS's and GISPs, that can understand and implement different data acquisition technologies and be damn good at it. The other groups in the company know what we offer and see us as equals. They respect our opinions. They have a need, and approach us on how to solve it. Need a ROW analysis for a small community, we're on it. A SAW project collecting 14,000 manholes and creating an interactive online GIS which then allows our client to stake-out a Sanitary manhole 3' under a gravel road, we can do that. Oh, and train DPW workers and create an SOP for them to utilize, of course. (That last one was an awesome project, I'm proud of it, but at no time did we need to sign or seal a thing) *I'm* seen as a Professional Surveyor, with an opinion that should be considered on damn near ANY job the company pursues. We are directly involved with not only Civil Engineering, but also Planning, Architecture, MEP, Water Resources, Facilities, etc. We provide a value to them. Some might say, "necessary evil," but that it pretty antiquated, and I dismiss it like you would a great-grampa going off on a racist tirade.
Sure, on our social media and old-school marketing flyers we still list ALTA, Geodetic Control Networks, Parcel/ROW exhibits, As-builts, Construction Stakeout. We still do these things. But we also include 3D scanning, UAS mapping, Building inspection/modeling, etc.?ÿ
Now, in your current situation, there needs to be change. First, you have to decide on the path YOU wish to take. Find another firm where you're appreciated or dig in for some challenges. Either decision, in my view, is respectable. Sitting like a bump on a log, is not. Given your wording, it sounds like digging in. Demand to be a part of the business planning. If that isn't your cup of tea, find someone that loves it. Myself, I'm not a business guy, and I don't pretend to be, however, other PS's on staff are. They bring value just the same as me. Develop, evaluate, adjust, and follow the plan. Have group discussions about what you want to do. If you're more aligned for corridor LiDAR mapping, go for it. If your people want to be more involved in property surveys, create a plan on how to be profitable with them and present that. Let those higher up know that you, and your team, are invested in the company, and want to have a say in your fate. The company's fate. Dont just say, "we're surveyors," show them you're Professionals and back it up. If the higher ups balk at that, well, I'd be out the door. But no one could fault you for trying.
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Like, Like, Like
What?ÿRaybies said ??ÿ
IF it's the type of work you want to do at this point in your career, there is money to be made in the survey department (a lot of money in many cases).?ÿ My first year at the last BMF I worked for (which sounds similar to Raybies firm) I brought in a $1.8M utility & topographic mapping project for a streetcar route planning.?ÿ The last two proposal I sent out before I left were for?ÿ$3.2M (tunnel monitoring) and?ÿ$7.0M (gas pipeline stakeout & as-builts).?ÿ The streetcar project bumped us up 20 places on?ÿ the ENR 500 list that year...management can't ignore that.?ÿ
If you like the company, benefits, and the people you work with, take the time to show the upper management the amount of work survey can bring in.?ÿ My last BMF team?ÿ (three crews three office techs at it's largest) had average income was $1.75M a year and 70% of that was generated by outside clients.?ÿ I had a lot of monitoring projects from developing a relationship with geotech firms and a lot of boundary/topo/platting from developing relationships with managers at a couple of the top AEC firms (AECOM, CH2M) that didn't have local surveyors.?ÿ ?ÿ
But what you do need is someone in survey who's willing to play the role of the rainmaker.?ÿ And that's not for everyone, nor is it something that people who are good at want to do for ever (myself for example).?ÿ On the other hand, the reason I put so much emphasis on it was having gone through the downturn at a big firm and not being blind to the fact that when staff reduction time rolled around, the technical experts were the first to be collecting unemployment and the guys who could bring in the survey contracts were still in the corner offices.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
Had a good sit down and come to Jesus moment with my supervisor. Its all good and I suspect will be much better moving forward. Thanks for all the advice.?ÿ
Good to hear R.
