Here's the story - I did an ALTA survey at my previous place of employment for a substantial hotel property. (I think that ALTA was an update from about 15 years prior). We charged somewhere in the $15-20k range at that time. That previous employer is no longer doing surveying or engineering, so they sent this request my way and I've been asked to do the survey on my own title block. I can get the CAD files from 1 year ago, but have to go through the new title report and have to set a few missing corners, as that item was not checked last time in the requirements. I have a number in mind, but I'm looking for some other opinions on how much or what percent of that original fee to charge.
Don't hand out your services for cheap. Your professional service is the product, not the cad file.
Your liability on the property is the same, I would maybe deduct a few hours for the cad work.
> Don't hand out your services for cheap. Your professional service is the product, not the cad file.
>
> Your liability on the property is the same, I would maybe deduct a few hours for the cad work.
I was thinking somewhere between 66-75% of the original price. I just realized I have to upgrade my E&O coverage to do this also. I don't typically do jobs of this size on my own so I don't currently carry the amount they're requiring. I will have to build that into the price as well.
In my opinion, which is from someone with more than 30 years’ experience managing the procurement of ALTA surveys, you should endeavor to undertake the survey upon a time and materials basis. There are only two other viable alternatives, which are lump-sum and time and materials not to exceed a set price.
The need for an update is driven by either a sale or refinancing of the property. And, the buyer/borrower is well aware of the value of the survey. However, that is not to say that an attempt will not be made to brow beat you into making the survey for less than the perceived value upon a not to exceed basis, which is the method that is preferred by bean counters. If you agree to either a not to exceed price or lump sum, you can be assured that it will be the only fixed cost by any of the professionals that are involved in the project that are nodes in its critical path.
By whatever method is used, it has been my experience that the bean counters will delay payment of your invoice unless it has a street address. There will also be a delay if a time and materials basis is not itemized. And, invoices are paid quicker if you provide a discount.
"I can get the CAD files from 1 year ago, but have to go through the new title report and have to set a few missing corners, as that item was not checked last time in the requirements."
You may be able to get the old CAD files, but they would be of little value. Using CAD files instead of performing a survey on the ground is a clear violation of the ALTA Standards!
> ...Using CAD files instead of performing a survey on the ground is a clear violation of the ALTA Standards!
Really! Even if those are your CAD files, based on a survey on the ground.
I didn't sense the sarcasm in your post, so I am not sure if it was there.
I have a ton of ALTA surveys my dad did over his career. I don't discount these because I have all of the records, CAD files, etc. I charge based on what it would cost for me to do it from scratch. I might discount it a little bit if it is for a repeat client or the new client has enough time in their due diligence process to find a low baller.
If nothing much has changed, 75%-80% of the original fee. If its older than a year or there are some changes, go up accordingly. In any case, you need to break out the gun and check the boundary and major improvements. An ALTA update can't be done without fieldwork, IMHO.
> "I can get the CAD files from 1 year ago, but have to go through the new title report and have to set a few missing corners, as that item was not checked last time in the requirements."
>
> You may be able to get the old CAD files, but they would be of little value. Using CAD files instead of performing a survey on the ground is a clear violation of the ALTA Standards!
I was the signing surveyor when those CAD files were created.
> If nothing much has changed, 75%-80% of the original fee. If its older than a year or there are some changes, go up accordingly. In any case, you need to break out the gun and check the boundary and major improvements. An ALTA update can't be done without fieldwork, IMHO.
I fully intend to do just that. I have to ensure that all corners are recovered or set as well as verifying all the improvements.
You are certainly free to read the Standards and do what you want. I've never met a lender who would accept a survey based on information more than 90 days old, but then again I've only been doing them for 30 years...
No sarcasm - just reading the Standards...
My fee would be 100 percent of what I would charge them if I didn't have the files and prior knowledge. That puts me on a level playing field with their alternative choices. I have no incentive to be a lowballer.
I don't work in the private sector, so I can't speak with any authority, but it seems like they are coming to someone that has surveyed it before because they know that he doesn't have to resurvey the world in order to figure out a boundary he has already figured out, and locate improvements he has already located. I agree that a new field survey should be done, and checks should be made and a search for new improvements needs to be made, but I would think a bit of a discount for all the work you don't have to redo would be encouraging repeat business.
He mention in his first post, he would have to go thru the title report, and reset a few missing corners. I think he only mention he could get the CAD files as a way to save time and not have to draw the survey all over again. I dont think he intents to do an arm chair survey. He just doenst know what to charge.
Also I know plenty of lenders that will take a 30 year old survey and close on it. Most draw the line at 7 years and make you sign a wavier saying no new fences or pools have been built in the last 7 years.
I would charge at least 75% of the original price if you could get closer to 90% that would be better, and 150% that would be idea.
> He mention in his first post, he would have to go thru the title report, and reset a few missing corners. I think he only mention he could get the CAD files as a way to save time and not have to draw the survey all over again. I dont think he intents to do an arm chair survey. He just doenst know what to charge.
>
> Also I know plenty of lenders that will take a 30 year old survey and close on it. Most draw the line at 7 years and make you sign a wavier saying no new fences or pools have been built in the last 7 years.
>
> I would charge at least 75% of the original price if you could get closer to 90% that would be better, and 150% that would be idea.
Really? A 1 year old ALTA and you have the CAD files to easily reproduce the map and the only problem is some missing boundary monuments? Agreed you're putting you stamp on someone else's work so should be careful but will a walk through and quick boundary confirmation cost you 15k time? Reviewing the Title Report should cost nothing because I suspect there's been no new easements, etc., reported.
In the land boom of the eighties we'd update an ALTA that was out of date by three months and only change the owner blocks after looking at the Title Report for surprises, and charge $500 for jobs we got paid $15,000 for originally, over and over. That adds up, but a year passes and we'll do a driveby looking for new construction, weird earthwork near the boundary, encroachment activity, new roads and maybe charge $2,000 for field time.
Charging $15,000 for a minor update of an ALTA that cost $20,000 a few years ago will make the banks question your sanity and you will lose out to the lowballers who will find and copy your original survey, put some lipstick on it and underbid you. Banks are sensitive to fake surveys, but no so much because they can lay it on the surveyor if at all blows up. So beware as a lowballer.
I'd propose $1,000 for updating a year old ALTA which originally cost $20,000 , assuming I drive by and what was bare graded ground does not have major structures on it.
Larry P. doesn't seem to be here to tell you that you should consider the value of what you produce, not just the cost.
You have a point in figuring out what the market will bear, but cost + x% isn't the only way to go.
I've never known of a realtor, title agent or lawyer that discounted their fee when a property sells for the second time in a year. Why should I? The value of my services is not just in the fieldwork or drafting. The liability is the same the second time around. I can only think of one ALTA that I lost because I proposed 80% of the original amount. Every other time the client was happy to get that 20% discount. YMMV
[sarcasm]But wait! If you call in the next 10 minutes, you get not just one, but TWO updated ALTAs!!. That's right, a $40,000 value is yours for just $999.95!!! But that's not all! As a special bonus for the first 10 callers, we will also agree to sign your certification, no questions asked, and throw in "successors and assigns" as a special thank you.
Call now!!! 555-3825[/sarcasm]
> I don't work in the private sector, so I can't speak with any authority, but it seems like they are coming to someone that has surveyed it before because they know that he doesn't have to resurvey the world in order to figure out a boundary he has already figured out, and locate improvements he has already located. I agree that a new field survey should be done, and checks should be made and a search for new improvements needs to be made, but I would think a bit of a discount for all the work you don't have to redo would be encouraging repeat business.
They are coming back to the same surveyor more likely because there were no delays in the previous transaction due to the survey, and because the person who has already done the work will be in the best position to turn it around the quickest. Although price is almost always a factor, for a returning or regular client, speed and an absence of issues that might delay closing are of greater value.
By issuing a new version of the survey, you are renewing your liability. You are, or should be charging for the value of your professional opinion as well as the expense and effort you will put into the project.
