I haven't spent any time on here since before covid-19. I have simply had too much going on in my life. Hope this finds everyone well and happy. In 2017 Georgia passed some laws affecting how plats are recorded. One of four certifications (must be verbatim), depending on the circumstance, must be on every plat to be recorded. From the wording, the surveyor should be the last one to sign it before recording. The certification states that the plat has been approved by the applicable local governing authorities and that the approvals, stamps, signatures are "hereon". My contention is that the Surveyor must sign last or it is a false statement. The surveyor is typically the one that records them and they are submitted electronically. The BOR issued a memorandum saying its ok to sign and release in order to obtain the approvals because some county planners won't approve it unless signed by the surveyor first. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig. In this case no matter what weasel words are used to disclaim it, it is still a false statement in my opinion. After a bit of research I discovered that to knowingly file or record a document with any government agency that contains a false statement is a felony (all government employees performing their duties are immune). There is this one county that insists on recording any plat that they review and approve. I don't really have a problem with that except that they will not put their stamp of approval on there until after the surveyor signs it. And then the approval is added digitally. It seems they are afraid that someone will alter the plat after they stamp it and before it's recorded. They have recorded at least one that the surveyor had not signed it all. And they have added content to more than two of mine that were submitted for recording after I signed them in their office for them to record immediately. One was recorded twice, weeks apart, with the added content rearranged (shows they retain the image without their approval stamp). In one instance the added content restricted the future use of the property. It was supposed to be approved without that restriction or our client wouldn't have bought the tract. Apparently they don't want anybody altering a plat after they approve it but it's okay for them to alter after I have signed it. They won't approve a plat for recording unless I sign a certification that isn't technically true (a felony). I would think that future credibility could be called into question if one does that. I'm not willing to and I'm about ready to talk to my attorney about the situation. Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? Thoughts? Suggestions?
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
SAMSOG, or whatever they are called, needs to jump on this like a chicken on a June bug.?ÿ I am extremely familiar with BS and know it we I see or smell it.?ÿ This is definitely a big load of BS.
Sounds like a legitimate concern to me.
First of all, I have a real nasty attitude towards any entity forcing me to do anything for any reason.?ÿ I understand city planning and zoning but find countywide zoning to be onerous.?ÿ I have no big problem with a second surveyor reviewing my simple plat.?ÿ I can even agree to some extent on the numerous entities that must sign off on the plat for a new subdivision.?ÿ But, to need to submit every survey to a minimum of three or four non-surveyors is completely ridiculous and is not reasonable whatsoever.?ÿ If my neighbor wants to buy a 10 foot by 80 foot strip of land from me and we are both agreeable with that.............to Hell with other people's opinions.
@holy-cow I haven't even touched on the fact that they want me to change tract numbers on a recent plat. I am pretty sure they do not have that Authority
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
I would not sign such a certification.?ÿ However, I would sign my seal and leave certification blank until such time as government approved.?ÿ Hopefully the clerk who reviews the plat has not dug their heels in and is open to a reasonable solution.
Contact the NSPS. Local Television News affiliate. Bring out the public relations nightmare these morons need to experience in order to get them back on line as clerk workers and not enforcement?ÿ of law, as that isn't their capabilities. Only the courts can enforce and adjudicate alleged infractions. And if they ever say this one thing " It's the law..." Hands down demand to see the statutes and if they say they can't, then file a formal complaint with the attorney general's office with the idea that they are eschewing legal doctrine albeit without the ability to show you the laws they are citing as factual and law.
There are a few good and diligent govery workers in most organizations. Power despots like the one you're describing need retraining and maybe even fired.
The next time you visit their office, ask them:
@hpalmer We did exactly that until they decided they would record the plat. When they are happy with the review, they tell us to send a hard copy (or digital) with "all applicable signatures for recording". They then add their digital approval stamp and record immediately.
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
This is my favorite map note:
"2. Unauthorized alteration or addition to a survey map bearing a licensed land surveyor's seal is a violation of section 7209, sub-division 2, of the New York State Education Law."
I think every state should have a similar law protecting a land surveyor's sealed and signed work product.
Nice to see you back, and hope all is well.
We have the same thing in Fl. Now some Surveyors now place a "boundary" certification in with the "regular" BS certification including a signature line for each. Surveyor signs boundary part, then after every political entity within a 100 miles signs it the surveyor can do the "final" signature. Like it should be. ?????ÿ
@flga-2-2 That is the way it usually goes. This one county won't give it back after they stamp it approved, they immediately record it.
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
Yep, you have a choice, go with the flow or go renegade on them and risk being placed on the sh%#..er... black list with that particular municipality. Good luck man. ?????ÿ
The fact that you cannot, or will not trust those who handle our work is a problem. This statement is not pointed at anyone in particular but all of us.?ÿ In my jurisdiction, I must sign and approve of the map/plat that I prepared in advance of any review. The professionals that review this map/plat respond with comments, corrections or suggestions that I must in kind also respond to. It is only after we are all satisfied do the owners review the map/plat; and if they find it okay, they sign off and it is submitted for final government approval and subsequent recording.?ÿ?ÿ
My experience is that this process works when we all have confidence in one another, trust and verify each others work and make time to let this all work. There have been problems of course, but they are few and the checks and balances prevent unpleasant situations. I spent a good amount of my career mentoring those who I needed to work with choosing that path rather than butting heads with them. I've also been schooled a time or two with regard to how things need to be done.?ÿ
All that said, there have been notes, addresses, and other minor corrections or additions made after I've approved the plat but those usually were not material to the survey.?ÿ
??§ Cheers
The bottom line is it is my work product.?ÿ Others may use it to meet their goals as a supplement to their official functions, such as zoning administration.?ÿ They do not control my work product as I am the professional, thus top of the heap.?ÿ They should simply accept my document, much like FEMA and insurance companies do with a Flood Certificate.?ÿ It is foolish for numerous outside entities to attempt to "revise" what they have been provided by an expert.?ÿ They may make a request for an affidavit clarifying certain key items that directly impact their related function when they agree to pay my invoice for doing so.?ÿ This goes into the same category as "successors and assigns".?ÿ Otherwise, if they have a full day available, they may kiss my..............................
?ÿprovided by an expert.
This is the problem.
People assert years of experience or on the job as a means to measure their sometimes inflated or wrong idea of their knowledge.
Surveyors have proved their knowledge in the crucible of the career and licensure.
Being a licensed surveyor, you're already held to much higher standard, and because they presume because they have the power of their position, and training and indoctrination from other people's ideas, misguided thoughts and abilities to hold powerful stop gaps, they create new problems that don't need to exist.
Govt work should be in the service of the common good, similar to what the license does define and support, unfortunately lots of govt workers are looking for a pension, and the longer they stay usually the worse the attitude and service become.
I see this every day I go to work. I'm never going to be able to pension in the role or organization I work at so I suppose I'm a serious outlier in my environment of always striving to do the best I can.
Take a video when they kiss your .................. ?????ÿ
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It is common to get a message that reads something like :"Your plat is approved. Send over a mylar that we can sign." With that sort of message in hand I think that the certifications could be signed in good faith.
At least, that is what my attorney is going to argue.?ÿ ?ÿ
@norman-oklahoma The problem is that in order to get said message, you would have to have already signed it.
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
If you send a digital copy, try sending a digitally signed pdf. The only true hard copy is an unadulterated version. Any changes are recorded in signed pdf's.
But, if the law requires you to be the last to sign it, then I would explain it. References to code have meaning to those sorts of people.?ÿ
Are your surveys used to show what you surveyed and not transfer property. Isn't that the Deed's purpose?