Official City map vs iron pins
Posted by CuriousOne on May 17, 2024 at 4:25 pm
<div>You say this might get escalated to a lawsuit. I'm wondering how that could happen. No two of the property owners could possibly be claiming the same piece of land or right of way.</div><div>
I suppose that owner A, in his/her capacity as a member of the public, might sue owner B for occupying 5 feet of what owner A considers to be public right of way. Would a local court hear this case? If so, would the City weigh in with testimony about the right-of-way width, and settle the matter in a few minutes?
You might consider getting some informal legal advice on this subject.
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I would bet dollars to donuts this is a slip and fall or personal injury case involving a sidewalk, or obstruction, and wherever the right of way is will determine liability or who will be picking up the tab. Whether homeowner insurance on the private side of the line, or public/municipal on the sidewalk/roadway side of the line.
I would tend to doubt that. In most jurisdiction it is the responsibility of the adjacent landowner to maintain the sidewalk even though they are in the public r/w.
Well, the 3-4 times I've been involved in those types of cases, the "incident" happened inside the public ROW, and the muni was found liable because it's their responsibility (duty), period.
Every jurisdiction tries to abrogate their duty with some nonsense ordinance like what you're saying.
Is it your responsibility to cut your neighbor's grass? No.
Why? Because it's their property, and their responsibility.
Most municipal attorneys count on the uninformed public to accept the concept you've just regurgitated.
I mean, c'mon, what muni really wants to maintain their infrastructure?
And if the muni can convince private citizens to "maintain said infrastructure", and said public actually attempts/does so, then any incident resulting from said attempt/maintenance can/would be attributable to that party. See the catch?
If the facts are on their side, a challenger will likely win.
Most municipal attorneys count on the uninformed public to accept the concept you’ve just regurgitated.
Every city I am aware of makes it the responsibility of the adjacent owner to maintain the planter strip and to sweep/shovel the walk in front of their property.
It is also the right thing to do...so there is that.
The trip and fall liability seems unlikely to transfer to the homeowner, I would imagine that if the City had widespread non-enforcement (which it does), then it would remain with the City. But, negligence on the part of the homeowner? Who knows, I would bet a dollar I could find a lawyer to make that case.
Here is Seattle's code:
"15.48.010 - Snow and ice removal.
It is the responsibility of the owner or occupant of private property to remove snow and ice on the sidewalks abutting his or her property in a timely manner and, if practical, prevent its becoming or remaining in an icy, ridged, uneven or humped condition or in a condition which is potentially hazardous to users of the public sidewalks."
1) I am sorry to anyone who thinks this is a trick - It is not. I do not care, at all, personally, what the Right-of-Way is, my only concern is finding out which is correct. I am trying to keep the peace among the neighborhood. I am looking for the correct legal answer, no matter which way that answer goes.
2) This is NOT anywhere in Texas. If it were in HP, it would be MUCH easier, as that town was platted formally in the 1900's and designed by the guy who designed Beverly Hills. Therefore, my guess is it would be much easier of an answer. When I posted, I purposely put in a fake zip to hide location because of the issues going on, on my street. Again, I am trying so very hard to keep peace among the neighbors. The actual town this is about was plotted much earlier than HP. Again, this is no where in Texas.
3) Yes, I have paid for 2 surveys, because I have neighbors who refuse to pay for even 1. I posted here in an effort to not bring a 3rd surveyor into this - which, in the end, I may have to do. Again, I am only looking for the truth and peace in the neighborhood. I would think my statement about not caring WHAT the correct answer was, just that I wanted the correct answer, should prove that I am not here to slant anything in any certain direction. I apologize if something I said made it seem that way.
4) No one has slipped/fallen. This is literally about who owns what land between neighbors. The Right-of-Way matters, because that dictates the Point-of-Beginning.
5) I have been vague, NOT in an effort to slant anything. But to keep peace in case a neighbor were to find this post, and jump to conclusions, one-way-or-another. If anyone would like to discuss this matter directly, I would happily do so in a more direct matter, just not on a public forum. Or, if anyone can suggest someone I should hire, who could advise, I would be open to that.
*Thank you to those who have offered their opinions, information, and advice. I truly appreciate your time.
For those of you who stated that it matters what was first: the map or the pins. The pins are not consistent from block to block (meaning there is not a pin on every corner of every block.) The pins (again, if they even are that) are very random. I would think that if they were placed by the original surveyor of the area, they would have some type of consistent placement? Is there a way to date the pins? I know that, today, pins have plastic caps with serial numbers. When did serial numbers begin being used? These are just metal rods/metal pipes. Is there a way to date that? Meaning was there a standard type of "pin" used at different periods of time? If so, that could potentially give a date range, by identifying pin-type. Or at least give an estimate - say, type of pin used in the 1800's vs type of pin used in the 1900's.
More info: The map maker was a surveyor. At the time he was commissioned, he was making maps of new additions to the town, as they were added. It was then decided that, he should take previously mapped/surveyed parts of town, and compile them all into one map. The city then voted that the compiled map was the official map. The city has stated that the previous maps no longer exist/can not be found.
Edit to add: The original survey of the area, that the city says no longer exists, was done before the Civil War happened. So, that would put any "original" pins pre-1960, at a minimum.
If you are interested in where you or your neighbor's POB is, that should be clearly defined in the deeds and retractable, the deeds should also note the ROW width. If starting at the POB along the roadway creates an overlap or gap along adjoining properties to the rear and that gap or overlap amounts to 5', that should give you the answer, one way or another.
There is something that you should clearly understand through the course of all of these posts and exchanges, we are offering professional opinions and not legal opinions. We are not lawyers or judges and don't have a crystal ball to figure out what the end result of litigation would be.
We are educated in boundary law, retracing title lines based on recorded documents and collecting evidence on which to base our professional opinions on while documenting evidence that is not in harmony with title lines. Title lines and ownership lines are not always the same things based on what has happened over periods of time, ownership is for the courts to consider.
I'm willing to bet that everybody in your neighborhood has title insurance and paid a premium for it at closing. Each of those involved in any sort of dispute that has title insurance should kick to ball over to the title company that guaranteed clean title. The them figure it out, they have their own attorneys on staff.
If you are not directly involved in a property dispute, my personal advice would be to let the others figure it out by themselves instead of involving yourself by trying to keep the peace. If you are involved, I believe that you said that you paid two surveyors that came up with different answers, contact both and have them come to a conclusion that is consistent, they can compare information and it is possible that one has information that the other doesn't.
The pins that you reference with plastic caps do not have serial numbers on them, the numbers that you see on them are the license numbers of the licensed surveyor who determined where the corner they mark is.
I'm assuming, based on what I saw, is that you are in LA and I am only licensed to practice in NJ, one of the 13 original colonies that has a completely different land system. As it relates to you asking about dating pins rods pipes and other markers, that is not possible if there is not a filed survey that describes exactly what was set, by who, and when it was described.
What traditional corners will vary from place to place and local custom, some were cedar posts that have long since rotted away, others could be stone mounds that either remain or have been wiped out, then there are those that vary regionally where buggy axles, gin spikes, and other odd items were set.
As a binary question:
Does the road width on a plat of 60' override the found monumentation on the ground showing 50'?
Original monuments are king, they hold over paper notations. There are rare exceptions, but those are rare. Yet here we have presumably secondary monuments. Can those override the plat distance?
Yes.
They can be set from evidence of the original subdivision, in the PLSS those are called obliterated monuments and the same principal exists in subdivisions.
So, the answer is unclear.
Now we find out that the plat is not the plat but rather a copy of the plat, and not actually a copy of the plat but integrated into a larger map of the city with many subdivisions welded together.
Those maps are not unheard-of, I've got one for my city and its helpful with interesting notations of found monuments and 60' streets found to be anywhere from 55' to 67' wide. It's an early form of GIS and it's way better for location information than the present day computer GIS. But, like the computer GIS It has errors. Many towns have redrafts of original plat maps, but always use them with suspicion. Looking at the original and the replat will usually reveal errors making the redraft.
I'm really moving my opinion (without being on the ground or an ability to research) towards the monumentation.
A pre 1860 plat that's lost or destroyed and then sometime in the past by someone recreated into a larger map doesn't inspire confidence in the paper information.
The Right-of-Way matters, because that dictates the Point-of-Beginning.
Who told you that? What matters in a old subdivision is where the boundary lines have been established. A great place to start in an old subdivision is finding harmony comparing the map to the location of the oldest infrastructure in a particular block. Also the fact irons don't agree from block to block is not uncommon in old subdivisions and is for the most part irrelevant to the location of established (legal) boundaries in another block. There have been many surveys disregarded by the court including in CA that attempted to fix everything by starting at some distant POB and laying out the "official" map off of it.
Knerr v. Mauldin comes to mind.
How binary circuits work, at least in computers: The answer flips back and forth unpredictably between 0 and 1 until the clock cycle runs out, and whatever the signal is when the clock says "time's up" is the answer.
"Original monuments are king, they hold over paper notations."
This statement is overly broad. Called for original monuments occupy the summit of the hierarchy of calls. Other monuments, even those first set, are evidence but must be proven. Merely setting monuments does not give them dignity. Owners must act in reliance upon them for them to become binding. For that to happen they must first be aware that they exist. This must be proven, not assumed.
We have here a story with a lot of holes. We have a compilation map showing width which may or may not be correct. We have monuments which were set we know not when, or by whom, and under what circumstances.
We have mention of Points of Beginning. P.O.B. would not be an issue if the right of way in question was established by plat. You do not describe platted property by reference to a P.O.B. Although not expressly stated the monuments do not seem to have been called for in the descriptions - if they had been their status would not be in question. The described depth of the lots, measured in from defined rear lines on both sides, may offer insight. The POB has no more importance than any other described corner. Nevertheless we may not have any comprehensive survey of the right of way, nor any definitive establishment document, nor any call for monuments in the deeds.
We need to look for a statute or local ordinance applicable at the time of establishment that dictates the width of newly opened rights of way. Even a pattern of local practice would be of interest. If right of way improvements fit neatly into a 60 foot corridor, that would make the width 60 feet by estoppel. If they fit a 50 foot width that argues in favor of that number. I think that courts would lean to the minimum that fills the public's needs.
In short, the monuments are evidence. Maybe even strong evidence. But I'll need to know a lot more about the whole setup before I declare them definitive. If I owned property abutting this RW I'd assume the wider width and act accordingly for the time being.
Curious, you can't provide vague information and expect clear answers. If you can't provide all of the information on this public forum, then you need to establish a private connection. I'm unsure why you can't do this with the 2 surveyors you have already hired. Ultimately the answer to your questions will reside with a surveyor and if not there, then the courts. But you have to provide all of the information to get fully informed answers.
