The disagreement, is about if the map or the iron pipes (that may or may not be old survey markers) rule the final outcome.
That is a decision for the judge. If the city isn't using the extra 10', they could vacate it. I am not sure if you could do a quiet title for the entire street, but perhaps you could for your parcel. But, if you are fighting city hall, their pockets might be deeper than yours.
Honestly, I do not care so much which way this falls. I am just trying to keep peace on my street and in my town, and need some hard proof of the correct answer to try to resolve the situation.
Have you asked the city, public works, engineer, etc?
For the group: Could a quiet title action be useful here.
If the official city map was filed at around the time of the completion and shows a 60' ROW (or easement), it really does not matter what pipes set later in time yield in width as you can't take land from a governmental agency.
To make the 50' ROW (or easement) legal, the city would have to abandon the 10' by official action. Even then, reversion rights have the possibility of being complicated.
If the official city map was filed at around the time of the completion and shows a 60′ ROW (or easement), it really does not matter what pipes set later in time yield in width as you can’t take land from a governmental agency.
To make the 50′ ROW (or easement) legal, the city would have to abandon the 10′ by official action. Even then, reversion rights have the possibility of being complicated.
I agree with this...what is more interesting to me would be the reasoning that led a surveyor to a different conclusion. The preponderance of evidence seems clear.
Is this property in the Highland Park area of Dallas County, TX?
What would the answer be in the Highland Park area of Dallas county TX?
Considerably more expensive given that there are dozens of $5M-$20M homes/real estate in that area.
Since you want to be snarky, nobody managed to glean that the OP is interested in, "...what, in the end, legally determines the right-of-way/point of beginning"
People worried about POB's in high $ areas that have already hired 2 surveyors that agree on a map, but not where these pins came from, that claim to want to keep the peace in the neighborhood, but are looking for case law to substantiate an answer are likely not telling you the complete story, and most of you step right into the trap, everytime.
But I guess that could apply to 123 Main Street, Anywhere, State 90210.
The burden of proof lies on the preponderance of evidence.
From the OP's statements I might very well advise them to get the 10' of street vacated. Cities will often be onboard as long as utilities are protected with easements if necessary. We've done dozens of vacations.
It's a process but not a difficult one, it will be much cheaper than any court action.
Vacations must be well understood if it's proposed. If the street was created by a plat with lots on either side, then vacating two 5' strips on each side of the street will eliminate city ownership in those strips and the lots on both sides will fully extend to the limits of the vacation. If the street was created with lots on one side, and lots on the opposite side were created at a later date, then only the original lots will be able to exert their reversionary rights, it may create a 5' strip of land blocking lots from street access.
Same if 10' on one side is vacated, it can result in that land being owned by the lots on the opposite side of the street.
Statutes here require the landowners to start the process, the city or county then reviews and either accepts the proposal or rejects it.
are likely not telling you the complete story, and most of you step right into the trap, everytime.
Almost always the case here. If they wanted real answers, they would give specifics and post the docs. People that post here cannot fathom the depth and quality of free analysis that our twisted minds force us to provide because that is what we do.
No, typically questions are posted here with a slanted set of facts so the OP can try and believe that they are in the right in the current beliefs.
But as far as "trap"? That is just silly. This is fun for us.
We have professional surveyors involved.
I'm curious as to "how" involved multiple surveyors are. I did not read where an actual boundary survey of the subject property has been done.
Official City map vs iron pins
Posted by CuriousOne on May 17, 2024 at 4:25 pm
<div>You say this might get escalated to a lawsuit. I'm wondering how that could happen. No two of the property owners could possibly be claiming the same piece of land or right of way.</div><div>
I suppose that owner A, in his/her capacity as a member of the public, might sue owner B for occupying 5 feet of what owner A considers to be public right of way. Would a local court hear this case? If so, would the City weigh in with testimony about the right-of-way width, and settle the matter in a few minutes?
You might consider getting some informal legal advice on this subject.
</div>
I would bet dollars to donuts this is a slip and fall or personal injury case involving a sidewalk, or obstruction, and wherever the right of way is will determine liability or who will be picking up the tab. Whether homeowner insurance on the private side of the line, or public/municipal on the sidewalk/roadway side of the line.
I would tend to doubt that. In most jurisdiction it is the responsibility of the adjacent landowner to maintain the sidewalk even though they are in the public r/w.
Well, the 3-4 times I've been involved in those types of cases, the "incident" happened inside the public ROW, and the muni was found liable because it's their responsibility (duty), period.
Every jurisdiction tries to abrogate their duty with some nonsense ordinance like what you're saying.
Is it your responsibility to cut your neighbor's grass? No.
Why? Because it's their property, and their responsibility.
Most municipal attorneys count on the uninformed public to accept the concept you've just regurgitated.
I mean, c'mon, what muni really wants to maintain their infrastructure?
And if the muni can convince private citizens to "maintain said infrastructure", and said public actually attempts/does so, then any incident resulting from said attempt/maintenance can/would be attributable to that party. See the catch?
If the facts are on their side, a challenger will likely win.
Most municipal attorneys count on the uninformed public to accept the concept you’ve just regurgitated.
Every city I am aware of makes it the responsibility of the adjacent owner to maintain the planter strip and to sweep/shovel the walk in front of their property.
It is also the right thing to do...so there is that.
The trip and fall liability seems unlikely to transfer to the homeowner, I would imagine that if the City had widespread non-enforcement (which it does), then it would remain with the City. But, negligence on the part of the homeowner? Who knows, I would bet a dollar I could find a lawyer to make that case.
Here is Seattle's code:
"15.48.010 - Snow and ice removal.
It is the responsibility of the owner or occupant of private property to remove snow and ice on the sidewalks abutting his or her property in a timely manner and, if practical, prevent its becoming or remaining in an icy, ridged, uneven or humped condition or in a condition which is potentially hazardous to users of the public sidewalks."
1) I am sorry to anyone who thinks this is a trick - It is not. I do not care, at all, personally, what the Right-of-Way is, my only concern is finding out which is correct. I am trying to keep the peace among the neighborhood. I am looking for the correct legal answer, no matter which way that answer goes.
2) This is NOT anywhere in Texas. If it were in HP, it would be MUCH easier, as that town was platted formally in the 1900's and designed by the guy who designed Beverly Hills. Therefore, my guess is it would be much easier of an answer. When I posted, I purposely put in a fake zip to hide location because of the issues going on, on my street. Again, I am trying so very hard to keep peace among the neighbors. The actual town this is about was plotted much earlier than HP. Again, this is no where in Texas.
3) Yes, I have paid for 2 surveys, because I have neighbors who refuse to pay for even 1. I posted here in an effort to not bring a 3rd surveyor into this - which, in the end, I may have to do. Again, I am only looking for the truth and peace in the neighborhood. I would think my statement about not caring WHAT the correct answer was, just that I wanted the correct answer, should prove that I am not here to slant anything in any certain direction. I apologize if something I said made it seem that way.
4) No one has slipped/fallen. This is literally about who owns what land between neighbors. The Right-of-Way matters, because that dictates the Point-of-Beginning.
5) I have been vague, NOT in an effort to slant anything. But to keep peace in case a neighbor were to find this post, and jump to conclusions, one-way-or-another. If anyone would like to discuss this matter directly, I would happily do so in a more direct matter, just not on a public forum. Or, if anyone can suggest someone I should hire, who could advise, I would be open to that.
*Thank you to those who have offered their opinions, information, and advice. I truly appreciate your time.
For those of you who stated that it matters what was first: the map or the pins. The pins are not consistent from block to block (meaning there is not a pin on every corner of every block.) The pins (again, if they even are that) are very random. I would think that if they were placed by the original surveyor of the area, they would have some type of consistent placement? Is there a way to date the pins? I know that, today, pins have plastic caps with serial numbers. When did serial numbers begin being used? These are just metal rods/metal pipes. Is there a way to date that? Meaning was there a standard type of "pin" used at different periods of time? If so, that could potentially give a date range, by identifying pin-type. Or at least give an estimate - say, type of pin used in the 1800's vs type of pin used in the 1900's.
More info: The map maker was a surveyor. At the time he was commissioned, he was making maps of new additions to the town, as they were added. It was then decided that, he should take previously mapped/surveyed parts of town, and compile them all into one map. The city then voted that the compiled map was the official map. The city has stated that the previous maps no longer exist/can not be found.
Edit to add: The original survey of the area, that the city says no longer exists, was done before the Civil War happened. So, that would put any "original" pins pre-1960, at a minimum.
If you are interested in where you or your neighbor's POB is, that should be clearly defined in the deeds and retractable, the deeds should also note the ROW width. If starting at the POB along the roadway creates an overlap or gap along adjoining properties to the rear and that gap or overlap amounts to 5', that should give you the answer, one way or another.
There is something that you should clearly understand through the course of all of these posts and exchanges, we are offering professional opinions and not legal opinions. We are not lawyers or judges and don't have a crystal ball to figure out what the end result of litigation would be.
We are educated in boundary law, retracing title lines based on recorded documents and collecting evidence on which to base our professional opinions on while documenting evidence that is not in harmony with title lines. Title lines and ownership lines are not always the same things based on what has happened over periods of time, ownership is for the courts to consider.
I'm willing to bet that everybody in your neighborhood has title insurance and paid a premium for it at closing. Each of those involved in any sort of dispute that has title insurance should kick to ball over to the title company that guaranteed clean title. The them figure it out, they have their own attorneys on staff.
If you are not directly involved in a property dispute, my personal advice would be to let the others figure it out by themselves instead of involving yourself by trying to keep the peace. If you are involved, I believe that you said that you paid two surveyors that came up with different answers, contact both and have them come to a conclusion that is consistent, they can compare information and it is possible that one has information that the other doesn't.
The pins that you reference with plastic caps do not have serial numbers on them, the numbers that you see on them are the license numbers of the licensed surveyor who determined where the corner they mark is.
I'm assuming, based on what I saw, is that you are in LA and I am only licensed to practice in NJ, one of the 13 original colonies that has a completely different land system. As it relates to you asking about dating pins rods pipes and other markers, that is not possible if there is not a filed survey that describes exactly what was set, by who, and when it was described.
What traditional corners will vary from place to place and local custom, some were cedar posts that have long since rotted away, others could be stone mounds that either remain or have been wiped out, then there are those that vary regionally where buggy axles, gin spikes, and other odd items were set.